Trade proposal for Raptors fans, plus others, to consider
In conjunction with what was written in this space yesterday …
What could the Raptors get today in a trade for Bargnani?
… here is one example of a significant “swing for the fences” Trade Proposal which yours truly happens to think the Raptors’ management team should seriously consider, at this time:
To the SACRAMENTO KINGS
Andrea Bargnani [C], DeMar DeRozan [G-F], Sonny Weems [G-F] and Toronto’s 2011 NBA Draft, 1st Round Selection
To the Toronto Raptors
Hassan Whiteside [C], Omri Casspi [F], Donte Greene [F], Jason Thompson [C] and Sacramento’s 2011 NBA Draft, 1st Round Selection
If you are Bryan Colangelo … Would you make this offer to Geoff Petrie?
If you are Geoff Petrie … Would you agree to this specific deal?
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If so, how come?
If not, how come?
Your constructive feedback is always welcomed in the comments section. 
Tags: Andrea Bargnani, Bryan Colangelo, Donte Greene, Geoff Petrie, Hassan Whiteside, Jason Thompson, Omri Casspi, Sacramento Kings, Toronto Raptors
December 10th, 2010 at 12:50 pm
Sacramento would gain on this deal as they get the best player in the deal.
Raptors would have the better pieces as I would take Caspri and Thompson over DeRozan and Weems but the draft pick would end up being a better pick for Sac. than for Raps because Sac. still has their best player on their team (Reke) and Raptors would struggle to determine who would be their best player and primary scorer.
If Sacrmaneto gave up their 1st round pick this year instead of an exchange of picks I might reconsider it, but based on the trade you’ve put forth, I wouldn’t do it from a Raptors perspective. Giving up best player in the deal and not getting back potnetially the best asset (highest 1st round pick possible) is a bad deal even by BC’s weak standards.
December 10th, 2010 at 1:13 pm
What in gods name? This is terrible.
This would leave TO with only Barbosa at the 2. It would leave them with absolutely no one capable of scoring the ball – unless you consider running your offence through Omri Caspi a good idea…
You propose trading Andrea Bargnani – who averages 21 points and 5 boards – for Jason Thompson – who averages 10 points and 7 boards? You’re willing to give up 11 points for 2 rebounds? For Whiteside – who plays in the D-league? The Raps already have a 2nd round pick D-league Centre.
You want to swap picks as well? With your proposed lineup, in what parallel universe do you imagine the Kings finishing with a worse record than the Raptors? So not only are you proposing to gut the team of three of its starters – including its leading scorer – in lieu of bench players and d-leaguers, you want to give them a worse draft position as well?
I understand you want no part of Bargnani, but bloody bazookas this is just madness.
December 10th, 2010 at 1:17 pm
sleepz,
1. Welcome aboard!
2. The first trade I actually thought about would have seen the same individual players involved for both teams but the Kings giving their 2011 NBA Draft, 1st Round Selection to the Raptors without Toronto giving any pick back to Sacramento.
I threw that proposal out, however … even though it, too, would have been approved according ESPN’s NBA Trade Machine … since it seemed unrealistic to expect the Kings/Goeff Petrie to actually be so stupid.
Hence, the flipping of both team’s 2011 NBA Draft, 1st Round Selections is what was included in my eventual trade proposal.
3. re: the question of which team would actually be getting the best player in the trade?
Although others might be inclined to give the nod to Bargnani, at the moment, in this regard, I would not be quite so quick to make that specific determination, as I think each one of:
i. Hassan Whiteside [C],
ii. Jason Thompson [PF],
iii. Omri Casspi [SF], and,
iv. Sacramento’s 2011 NBA Draft, 1st Round Selection,
have the opportunity to develop into a better all-around basketball player than Il Mago, in the not-too-distant future and over the course of their respective careers.
4. In addition …
since Sacramento’s current W-L Record is 5-15, and Toronto’s W-L Record is 8-14
… What would make you think that the Raptors would possibly not end up with the higher 1st Round Draft Pick this off season, as a result of this proposed transaction?
December 10th, 2010 at 1:30 pm
jeff,
1. Welcome aboard!
2. The Raptors depth chart this season would then actually look like this:
PG: Calderon and Barbosa –> Bayless
OG: Casspi [SF convert], Greene [SF convert] and Bayless
SF: Kleiza, Wright and Stojakovic [OG-?]
PF: Johnson and Davis –> Evans and Dorsey
C: Thompson and Whiteside –> Alabi
Do you really think that line-up would be doomed to finish this season with a worse W-L Record than the Sacramento Kings? … and, Would somehow be void of legitimate assets moving forward?
[PLEASE NOTE: If your answer is, "Yes, it would"; then, simply know that I would disagree with your assessment of that list of players ... especially, when you THEN add in the Kings' 1st Round Selection from the 2011 NBA Draft,
, and consider what that collection would be able to accomplish down-the-road in terms of Team Defense and Rebounding.]
December 10th, 2010 at 1:46 pm
Based on this year’s averages, the Raps new starting 5 would score a whopping 45 points per game – with no single player averaging over 10 points. You’re moving Linas Kleiza back into the starting line-up. Based on how he’s played this year, the goal should be to play him less, not more.
Their second unit would feature a point guard who doesn’t pass;, an undersized shooting-guard with a suspect jump shot; a small forward whose only skill is playing defense and a center who is currently in the D-league.
Meanwhile, the Kings now feature two 20+ scorers and have one of the league’s most dynamic front-court combos with Cousins/Bargnani/Dalembert. Derozan and Weems, no longer needing to force shots to carry an offense can now play perfectly suited to their abilities as slashing 3rd options. Also, they get the first round draft pick of a team likely to challenge for the league’s worst record.
December 10th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
It appears you would prefer to move Bayless to the third string as both a point and shooting guard. What’s your rationale for basically killing his career?
December 10th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Jeff,
The potential dynamism of Cousins/Bargnani/Dalembert … together with Evans, DeRozan and Weems, etc. … is precisely WHY Sacramento/Geoff Petrie just might be willing to go for a deal like this.
Scoring enough points to a win a number of games in the NBA is never a problem.
What’s of far greater concern is constructing a legitimate team which is actually capable of “stopping a quality opponent from scoring more than enough points” to beat your squad on a consistent basis.
From your comments, thus far, I’d surmise that specific things like accumulating adequate/superior team defense and rebounding are not really priorities in your assessment of how the game is played most effectively at the highest level of competition.
Would I be right, in this regard?
December 10th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
Jeff,
re: killing Bayless’ career
LOL, LOL, LOL
Perhaps I have more actual “faith” in him than you do?
i.e. Barbosa would/should only be a temporary roadblock for Bayless … who is still an “immature” player in need of further grooming, if he is going to become a solid PG down-the-road.
Casspi and Greene would each have the size required in the modern NBA game to at least slow down a “stud” like Kobe Bryant, when he’s operating at the OG position.
Until they each develop further, however, a smaller cat like Bayless could come in pretty handy, at the OG spot, as a 3rd string back-up … to go up against the smaller vets like Ray Allen and the up-and-comers like Jodie Meeks who populate this position in the NBA.
December 10th, 2010 at 4:02 pm
Caspi PER + Opponents PER: -9.6
Greene PER + Opponents PER: -1.6
Thompson PER + Opponents PER: -10.9
Total: -22.1
Derozan PER + Opponents PER: -4.8
Weems PER + Opponents PER: -5.1
Bargnani PER + Opponents PER: -4.7
Total: -14.6
Difference: +7.6 in favour of Raptor’s trio
How exactly does bringing in Casspi, Greene and Thompson in place of Bargnani, Derozan and Weems help the Raptors? Opposing players go to town on Casspi and Thompson. Bargnani on a good day is capable of scoring more than those three combined.
December 10th, 2010 at 4:11 pm
this is a terrible trade from the raps perspective, khandor. you assert that the kings coming over might have a potential to be better than the raptors going back. well, that is pure pure speculation that would, i think, be disputed by just about anyone in nba management. in the process, you totally discount the potential upside of bargs and derozan. is it your position they have peaked? if so, based on what?
your underlying point that the raps need a better mix of defence/rebounding and offence is a valid one. bargnani, like all players, should be traded if the return is a net positive. he shouldn’t be traded for, what bill simmons would call, the poo poo platter you suggest.
December 10th, 2010 at 4:13 pm
o and khandor, how is your shot-in-the-dark speculation about the effects of the jack-bayless trade and the raps ulterior motives faring?
so far, you were wrong about:
- the raps winning more;
- the raps signing dampier (or someone of that ilk);
- the raps playing peja and sitting bayless; and
- davis having a significant impact by his presence (10 min a game).
December 10th, 2010 at 4:25 pm
Khandor,
It’s pretty obvious Sacramento would accept this dead. They get a perfect complement to Cousins in Bargnani and they get a decent prospect in Derozan for pretty much Casspi, who I like a lot.
Greene is not good…at all and Thompson is allegedly on the trade block and Whiteside is a D-Leaguer right now. Whether his upside is great or not, until he proves himself he’s what he is.
Bargnani’s presence would open more lanes for Tyreke to drive in and give even more room for Cousins to beast while we will implode completely without any (offensive) talent. It is perfectly realistic their record will be better than ours or close enough to make the pick swap as good as inconsequential.
If you go for a trade like that we should get a dump for Calderon’s contract and Sacramento’s unprotected pick, no swap. We can then tank away. With a likely lockout we’d add a couple of great picks before starting the 2012-2013 with an infinitum of cap space and prospects.
December 11th, 2010 at 11:49 am
THat is the most retarded trade i’ve heard of. You trade one good player (andrea) and two talented prosective players in weems and derozan for 4 average players. This trade would make us a lottery team for the next 6 years.
December 11th, 2010 at 11:52 am
Khandor, I think its a pretty fair trade, props for keeping your head above all these naive fan boys who can only appreciate scoring and not rebounding and defense.
I dont think its the best deal for the Raptors because I feel the percieved value of Weems, Bargs and Dero is higher than this haul. I proposed the following trade on a previous post, but I think it didnt go through, which was incredibly fair and logical for both sides.
Raptors:
Taj Gibson
Omar Asik
Ronnie Brewer OR C.J. Watson + Scalabrine (trade filler)
1st round Pick
for
Bargnani
Weems
(Possible) Future 1st round pick
I think Chicago does this trade because Bargnani off the bench would give them a perfect change of pace from the first unit and he could be the focal point of offense on the second unit. The team has the defense and rebounding around him to make it happen.
Toronto should not think twice about this trade. Taj Gibson looks like a fantastic prospect and Omar Asik reminds me of a “Noah-lite” and is developing well.
What do you think?
December 11th, 2010 at 12:15 pm
jeff,
re: comparing Casspi, Greene and Thompson vs DeRozan, Weems and Bargnani
1. Although you are certainly free to disagree with my opinion, I would simply suggest to you that:
- Casspi [G-F, 6-9, 225, 22 yrs] is actually a better basketball player than DeRozan [G-F, 6-7, 220, 21 yrs]
- Greene [G-F, 6-11, 226, 22 yrs] is actually a better basketball player than Weems [G-F, 6-6, 205, 24 yrs]
- Thompson [C-PF, 6-11, 250, 24 yrs] is actually a better basketball player than Bargnani [C, 7-0, 250, 25 yrs]
at the respective positions which they each happen to play best, when you consider all 3 main phases of the game, i.e. Offense, Defense and Rebounding, in addition to their specific skill sets, size, strength, explosive quickness, agility, coordination, Basketball IQ, etc., irrespective of what their individual PER’s might be to this point of this season.
If you consider the MPG and GP [and G] for these 6 players, so far, this season:
Casspi – 24; 18 [of 20]
Greene – 21; 15 [of 20]
Thompson – 18; 19 [of 20]
DeRozan – 31; 23 [of 23]
Weems – 27; 22 [of 23]
Bargnani – 35; 23 [of 23]
it would be fair to observe that these 3 Kings’ players have not been a major component of what Sacramento [5-15] has actually achieved, thus far; while these 3 Raptors’ have all been a major component of what Toronto [8-15] has achieved, thus far.
When you throw a young player like Hassan Whiteside [C] – with immense upside as a defender/rebounder/shot-blocker – into the mix, what should then become apparent is the actual degree to which this specific trade involves the “buying low” of these 4 Kings’ players … prior to some combination of them “blowing up” in subsequent years … and the “selling high” of these 3 Raptors’ players … prior to their ensuing “drop in value”, as a combination for Toronto.
2. I do not put a great deal of faith in simple stats like PER and Opp PER, obtained from a site like 82games.com, since they do not distinguish properly between individual match-ups and are highly dependent on the “basketball judgment” of the person who was responsible for “spotting” in the actual games played.
December 11th, 2010 at 12:37 pm
craig,
As I said above to jeff, you are certainly free to disagree with my opinion of Bargnani, DeRozan and Weems vs the combination of Whiteside, Thompson, Greene and Casspi.
At this point of their respective careers, I would readily recognize that the 3 Raptors in question would be perceived by many in the basketball world to be superior players, compared to the 4 Kings I’ve put forward in this trade.
Time will tell, however, if my “basketball judgment”, in this regard, will turn out to be right, or wrong.
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re: the Raptors winning more since the trade for Bayless & Stojakovic
Prior W-L Record = 4-9/.308
Subsequent W-L Record = 4-6/.400
You might need to brush up on your basic math skills.
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re: the Raptors acquiring a veteran Center
There is still a lot of time left before the trade deadline this season for Bryan Colangelo to make this happen, so I would not be so quick to assert that I’ve been proven incorrect about this … just yet.
If the Raptors can stay in the hunt for the 8th playoff spot between now and the end of January 2011, then, it will be very interesting to see if Bryan Colangelo is able to resist the urge to make a move in this area, designed to help the team qualify for post-season play this year.
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re: the sitting of Bayless
Did you see the way that Barbosa played in last night’s game?
Did you see the way that Bayless played in last night’s game?
If the Raptors choose to not use Bayless as their 3rd string PG, and Barbosa as their primary Back-up PG, then, it will not prove that I was wrong about this but, instead, only that the Raptors’ management team doesn’t really understand the proper roles in which to use their players, if their goal really is to win as many games as possible this season.
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re: the playing of Stojakovic
The first game he was available to be used, the Raptors used him as a stretch-4/shooter coming off the bench. Since that time, however, he’s been out with swelling in his knee. It will be interesting to see if he is able to recover from this setback, and whether or not Toronto actually intends to use him to provide them with some badly needed 3PT-shooting, or if he is simply going to be flipped for additional assets down-the-road, as the playoffs get further out of reach.
December 11th, 2010 at 1:03 pm
ThomasGM,
1. Welcome aboard!
2. I agree that Greene is by no means a “star” player; but, I disagree that he is “no good, at all”. At his size and with his specific skill-set, a cheap player like Greene has a good deal of value in the NBA, if he’s with the right organization.
3. I’m not 100% certain that the Kings would actually make this deal, since they might actually value, both, Whiteside and Casspi in a similar way to me.
It is, however, a deal I think they would, at least, consider.
From the Raptors perspective …
IMO, there is almost NO CHANCE that Toronto would actually go for a trade like THIS one – even though they SHOULD do exactly THAT, if their management team actually knows what it’s doing, in the grand scheme of things.
Building around a player like Bargnani is never ever going to bring a League Championship to Toronto.
“Swinging for the fences”, however, in a way like I’ve proposed here …
i.e. identifying Ed Davis, as a legitimate Core Player, and then adding to him with other young players like Whiteside, Thompson, Greene and Casspi, who have a great deal of upside [i.e. athletically, offensively and especially in terms of defense and rebounding]
is a totally different ballgame, and nothing at all like adding poorly suited veterans in the form of Jermaine O’Neal, Shawn Marion, or Hedo Turkoglu …
when you then add-in the “possibility” of also landing a Top 3 Selection in the 2011 NBA Draft, if the Kings should happen to have the misfortune of falling to the bottom of the Western Conference this season, after inserting Mr. Bargnani into their everyday line-up, as their Starting Center.
December 11th, 2010 at 1:15 pm
Dino Gunners,
1. Thanks for the kind words.
2. I don’t think Chicago would be willing to do the deal which you’ve proposed … primarily, because the Bulls DO NOT NEED TO MAKE A DEAL AT ALL THIS SEASON, since they will already be one of the Top Teams in the East, as is:
PG – Derrick Rose and CJ Watson
OG – Keith Bogans and Kyle Korver
SF – Luol Deng, Ronnie Brewer and James Johnson
PF – Carlos Boozer and Taj Gibson [plus James Johnson and Kurt Thomas]
C – Joakim Noah, Omer Asik and Kurt Thomas
Head Coach – Tom Thibodeau
once they return to full health, with a legitimate shot at reaching, both, the Conference and the NBA Finals.
3. As a general rule …
A team in Toronto’s situation should be trying to make a deal with one of the other bottom-end teams … rather than one of the high end teams already … in an effort to secure as high a set of draft picks as possible.
December 14th, 2010 at 2:20 am
I think Sacramento would be interested in this trade but I don’t think they should do it.
I don’t like the idea of trying to develop Bargnani and Cousins at the same time on the defensive end of the floor. I’d rather keep good defensive players around Cousins while he learns his trade. Maybe later in Cousins’ career when he has a better foundation for success … but not at this point in his career.
I would also be reluctant to acquire DeRozan to play alongside Evans. Tyreke Evans and the Kings as a unit are far more effective when they have good spacing offensively. Evans’ flaws offensively become more glaring without spacing (pretty much since the day Carl Landry joined the team). So I’d have no interest in a perimeter player who can’t shoot. I would much rather have Casspi and Greene.
As for the Raptors, I don’t think Colangelo would do the deal. I do think it would improve the Raptors but it wouldn’t be the type of deal I would like to see them pursue. This trade has three solid young players in Casspi, Greene and Thompson and an interesting prospect. Four pieces. Good pieces.
I’d rather see the Raps focus on adding one singular talent who brings more individual ability to the table. Someone who is an above average starter at their position or has the capacity to be an All-Star. Hassan Whiteside might be that guy but he is long shot. He has a huge amount of improvement to go through. I’d want something more dependable than that.