Uh-oh, here he goes again
Here is this year’s direct quote from the Raptors’ President/GM:
Raptors makeover will work: Bryan Colangelo
“The scope of the makeover definitely changed from what we originally thought but it wasn’t because we didn’t feel like we should do some of those things,” the president and general manager explained. “It was because we were limited in what we thought we had available to us.”
That all changed after a bold four-team, double sign-and-trade transaction centred on Hedo Turkoglu and Shawn Marion which gave Colangelo the resources to complete a rather remarkable makeover that will be fully unveiled at the team’s annual media day today.
“We’re much better off for it,” said Colangelo. “With all the new faces it’s going to be a challenge … but we really did want to make some changes.
“We’ve accomplished it on paper and now we have to put it all together.”
There’s the rub.
Yes, on paper the Raptors seem vastly improved over the squad that finished last season 33-49.
They have five backups who have been NBA starters and a big starting lineup seemingly more talented than it’s been in years.
But paper isn’t reality; no one can tell what is actually going to transpire during the course of a season.
———————————————
There’s the rub?
Here is what he had to say last season, at this exact same time:
On paper … the best team the raptors have had
“On paper, in terms of just pure talent, I would say, yes, this is the best team we’ve had,” the Raptor president and general manager said Monday afternoon.
———————————————
On paper?
On paper … means absolutely squat, in the NBA environment.
How a team’s players and coaches fit together, or not, whether they can create individual mismatches which their squad can then take full advantage of, and/or whether they can combine to minimize the match-up advantages which their opponents have based on their respective strengths and weaknesses, etc., are not things which can be assertained with accuracy from looking at a collection of statistical data accounting for “seasonal/career averages” in a plethora of categories ranging from simple to advanced.
Regardless of what the “stats gurus” will try to tell you about “How the game works”, the team that will eventually win the 2009-2010 NBA Championship will not be determined by:
A. How it happens to look on paper;
B. How it happens to perform in a NBA video game;
C. How its players may happen to rank in a NBA Fantasy Hoops contest;
D. etc.
There are 5 teams with a legitimate shot at winning the title this year:
1 LA Lakers [the reigning champions, 65 wins last season]
2 Boston Celtics [the 2007-2008 champions, 62 wins last season]
3 San Antonio Spurs [the 2006-2007 champions, 54 wins last season]
4 Orlando Magic [the reigning finalists, 59 wins last season]
5 Cleveland Cavaliers [the 2006-2007 finalists, 66 wins last season]
based upon:
1 The overall strength of their organization, from top to bottom;
2 The Quality Depth on their roster, specifically designed to create and minimize individual match-up advantages for themselves and their opponents, respectively;
3 Their team’s ability to Rebound & Defend, in general … and, specifically, on certain crucial possessions which decide the final outcome of playoff games;
4 Their collective ability to play Shared Team Offense;
5 Their star players’ abilities to make crucial plays, where necessary, in all three main phases of the game, i.e. Defense, Offense and Rebounding;
6 The quality of their coaching; and,
7 The quality of their GMing.
———————————————
Unfortunately, what is now painfully obvious for the Raptors is the lack of an over-riding plan for this organization to ever win a NBA championship while operating under the ownership of MLSE.
Since April 2004, when Glen Grunwald was fired from his position, as GM for the team, the Raptors have been in almost constant state of flux:
2003-2004, Grunwald-O’Neill
33-49/.402, 10th place, missed the playoffs
2004-2005, Babcock-Mitchell
33-49/.402, 11th place, missed the playoffs
2005-2006, Babcock-Mitchell/Colangelo-Mitchell
27-55/.313, 12th place, missed the playoffs
2006-2007, Colangelo-Mitchell
47-35/.573, 3rd place, 1st Rd playoff loss
2007-2008, Colangelo-Mitchell
41-41/.500, 6th place, 1st Rd playoff loss
2008-2009, Colangelo-Mitchell/Colangelo-Triano
33-49/.402, 13th place, missed the playoffs
2009-2010, Colangelo-Triano
?, ?, ?
Teams “in a constant state of flux” do not know what they are doing when it comes to ever being able to build a championship operation in the NBA … in spite of their own ability to make $$$ hand-over-fist, on an annual basis.
It takes a high degree of Basketball Acumen to actually win the title in this league … and THIS simply isn’t to be found on a piece of paper, or through crunching numbers.
Tags: Bryan Colangelo, Glen Grunwald, Jay Triano, KevinO'Neill, Rob Babcock, Sam Mitchell, Toronto Raptors
September 28th, 2009 at 9:50 am
[...] Originally Posted by Bryan Colangelo
September 28th, 2009 at 9:53 am
Of course, you’re right that teams that constantly flip GMs like they are disposable never develop into anything.
Colangelo first 3 seasons were attempts to get a bad team back into the playoffs. And we did get playoffs - twice!
This season looks like his first attempt to actually build a team with some staying power and direction.
Colangelo had a very good run in Phoenix - its time we give him his run in TO.
Changing anything now puts the Raps right back at the start again.
Sometimes the best course is to stay the course.
September 28th, 2009 at 10:29 am
What exactly do you expect him to say. This is the best team ever. This is the best Raptors team ever. This team is ok. This team sucks. I wont answer your question.
When the media asks you questions there will always be someone to criticize or analyze your comments (often with too much or too little depth). Someone will twist your words, compare them to someone or something else. You cant win answering questions to the media if they (the media) dont want you to.
If you seriously think BC makes his player decisions based on
a. Paper
b. a Vidoe Game
c. Fantasy Hoops
d. etc.
You clearly know nothing of BC.
On a seperate note. Of those 5 teams you listed who have a legitamte shot at the title: 3 had the opportunity to draft clear cut first overral picks (Howard, James and Duncan). The other 2 were given sweet deal trades that seemingly no other teams were privy to or atleast had access to, (the lakers deal being a bit on the sketchy side). Boston and LA already having an elite player on their team. You can credit those GMs for having a high level of basketball acumen. But if Duncan, KG, Kobe, Howard or James are injured for the season their teams will do little (as was seen with SA and Boston last year). This is a players league. Not a coaches or a GMs league. Getting the opportunity to pay large $ to the best available talent does not mean you have a high basketball acumen. What Joe Dumars did with Detroit (and to a lesser degree the GM for SA), for the better part of a decade was amazing. What Cleveland, LA and Orlando has done is not. Being in the right place at the right time and not being stupid does not automtically mean you are intelligent.
September 28th, 2009 at 10:36 am
One important fact you left out.
Those teams contending for the title are over the luxury tax.
It’s not skill that sets these teams apart. It’s money.
To write an article about how smart these teams are is a joke.
Make the penalty $5 to $1. Which would end teams going over
the luxury tax. Than lets see where these five teams end up.
NFL has the best system why other sports don’t adopt some form of it,
is baffling. Alot of NBA teams have low attendence. It’s not because
basketball isn’t enjoyed by the masses. Fans of these other teams
have no hope because of the financial rules of the league.
Make it fair and on a financial level playing field.
September 28th, 2009 at 10:38 am
brothersteve,
I’m not just talking about flipping GMs.
The lack of an over-riding plan from Bryan Colangelo himself is the most troubling aspect of the last 4+ seasonns.
Year 1 - took control and made the wrong decision to retain Mitchell
Year 2 - refurbished the team for the short term
Year 3 - improved the team in the wrong way, e.g. add Kapono/drop MoPete, etc.
Year 4 - O’Neal trade #1 was a disaster; O’Neal trade #2 was short term
Year 5 - Marion’s sign & trade, etc., was for the short term
Do you see a pattern here?
Please compare what’s happening with the Raptors recently to what’s been going on with:
1 Los Angeles Lakers
2 Boston Celtics
3 San Antonio Spurs
4 Orlando Magic
5 Cleveland Cavaliers
6 Portland Trail Blazers
7 Oklahoma City Thunder
8 Houston Rockets
9 Utah Jazz
10 Chicago Bulls
11 Detroit Pistons
12 Dallas Mavericks
13 New Orleans Hornets
14 Atlanta Hawks
15 Miami Heat
16 Phoenix Suns
17 Denver
18 Philadelphia 76ers
19 Indiana Pacers
20 New Jersey Nets
21 Washington Wizards
etc.
In contrast … right now the Raptors franchise is swimming with the likes of:
23 Golden State Warriors
24 LA Clippers
25 Charlotte Bobcats
26 New York Knicks
27 Milwaukee Bucks
28 Memphis Grizzlies
29 Minnesota Timberwolves
30 Sacramento Kings
One of the main problems with the Raptors during this recent stretch has been the unpreparedness of Bryan Colangelo to Stay the course, in the first place … in concert with a string of poor personnel decisions.
September 28th, 2009 at 10:42 am
I agree with brothersteve here. Not exactly sure what you’re trying to say here Khandor. The start of the post seems to be the start of a Colangelo bashing, and then it turns into too much GM flipping… Do you want Colangelo in or out? :\
To think that all a franchise needs to do is to focus on winning a Championship and it’ll happen is extremely naive. Like brothersteve said, Colangelo’s goal coming in was to make the playoffs again. He succeeded rather well.
After making the playoffs, the next goal was to get to the second round. When it showed that his “make it into the playoffs” team wasn’t going to be able to get to the second round, he made changes. Those changes didn’t pan out, not all do (look at the Lakers with adding Gary Payton and Carl Malone… and that’s your model franchise…).
So we’re still at the stage where we want to put a group together that can not only make the playoffs, but win a series or two. And I think that Colangelo has done his part to reach that level.
Once the team reaches that level, then I think it’s fair to start asking the team to look towards eastern conference and league finals. But let’s not get ahead of ourselves.
September 28th, 2009 at 10:58 am
HR,
What Colangelo needed to say was something other than what he said.
What he said was:
—————————————
We didn’t have this type of roster in mind when we first started tinkering this summer.
We didn’t think that the pieces at our disposal last year could realize these types of gains in the first place.
We then abandoned our plan, once again, and decided to go in this new direction when thedse opportunities opened up this off season.
We’ve addressed all of our needs from last season … on paper.
What’s left now … is to put it all together.
—————————————
IMO, that is not what a Top Notch GM would have said.
Instead, a Top Notch GM would have said something along the following lines:
“We like the direction our team is headed. We’ve got a long term term plan in place to get better gradually and the moves we made this off season have set us along that course. Better days are ahead for this franchise given the pieces we now have in place that can form the basis of a consistently good team in Toronto with a long term commitment to winning the NBA Championship down-the-road.”
You are free to disagree with this perspective, if you wish … but, citing such things as the presence of former No. 1’s like Howard, James and Duncan on the rosters for Orlando, Cleveland and San Antonio is nothing more than a poor excuse, when you consider what else has been done in each of those situations to create their current environment which is geared toward winning it all, not to mention the fact that other marquee players like:
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Dirk Nowitzki
Carmelo Anthony
Chauncey Billups
Brandon Roy
etc.
have all come into the league and proceeded to have stellar careers to-date without being a No. 1 [overall] Draft Pick … which the Raptors have been fortunate enough to get themselves in the form of Andrea Bargnani.
September 28th, 2009 at 11:03 am
Raptor Cowboy,
If that was Colangelo’s goal coming in … then he’s had the WRONG goal from the outset.
The END POINT is eventually winning the NBA title AND being able to sustain a level of excellence.
The beginning point is not just qualifying for the playoffs.
Only fans and average GM’s, etc., think in those terms.
What there’s been a LACK OF from this franchise for a long time is any semblance of a long term plan for Winning a League championship.
————————————
re: GM flipping
It’s not a question of:
Do I want Colangelo to stay or go?
Those who’ve read what I’ve had to say since his arrival as the President/GM should be able to see for themselves that I have NEVER ONCE called for Bryan Colangelo to be fired by the Raptors.
Those who try to turn what I have to say about this team’s fortunes into an either or proposition MISS THE MARK COMPLETELY.
Bryan Colangelo has been an average GM in the NBA for a long time now … and, if what he wants to do is start heading toward winning a League Championship one day with the Raptors he’ll begin to take a different tact with this franchise than he’s used to this point.
His decisions NEED to become focused on the long term.
He needs to develop a thicker skin.
He needs to increase the level of his actual Basketball Acumen.
In general, he needs to hire better people under him at a whole variety of different levels.
[PLEASE NOTE: Instead of listing the full rosters for each of the individual year's since the 2002-2003 season, I provided links for 2003-2004, 2004-2005, 2005-2006, 2006-2007, 2007-2008, 2008-2009. It's not just the GM-flipping which the Raptors have engaged in that's been THE problem but the poor decisions regarding which coaches and players should have stayed as well.]
September 28th, 2009 at 11:34 am
David,
Welcome aboard!
If the Raptors were a small-market team then the LTT issue would play a legitimate role in their current situation.
The fact is, however, that the Raptors are not a small-market team.
If the the teams winning are those going over the LTT then that is precisely where the Raptors need to go … if their REAL goal is actually the same as these other teams.
Which takes us back to the other main problem with the entire set-up at MLSE … concerning whether or not there is a REAL commitment to Winning The League Championship at the management level of this organization?
If there is … then there is no reason for this team is not exceed the LTT when each of the other “winning” outfits in the League are doing that exact same thing.
September 28th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Khandor… I never said that there are not other highly talented players that are not drafted #1. How that factors into this debate I’m not sure. However, since you brought them up, none of those players are on your choice of 5 teams to compete for the championship this year. So their GMs must not have high basketball acumen. They obviously didn’t plan properly for the future. Obtain top talent to be around them. Proper depth on their roster etc…….
What I said about Orlando, LA etc. is NOT an excuse. It is reality. You can deny it if you want… but its right there in front of you. You compared top notch basketball acumen to those teams… those teams all had privileged opportunities that few (if any) had the same access to.
As for BCs statement… if you take out the “on paper” you are so critical of what did he say? We had problems last year that we needed to address. We have fixed them. What is exactly wrong with that? Everyone focused way to much on the “best team on paper” statement last year. You are focusing it again. It was and is meaningless.
The irony of all this is how dependent a sports handicapping business is on information “on paper”………
September 28th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Edit: Kobe Bryant IS on the list of teams to compete for the championship this year.
September 28th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
HR,
Although those players named above do not play for one of the 5 legit contending teams this season each has competed on a team in recent years that has been amongst the leading group of contenders for a league championship … with the exception of Brando Roy who, IMO, is at the leading edge of the next wave of great players that will fall into this category.
Thanks for acknowledging your initial oversight, re: Kobe.
IMO, you would be hard-pressed to identify a legit NBA expert who would assert that Dallas [Dirk], Detroit [Chauncey], Miami [Dwyane], Utah [Deron], Portland [Brandon], Denver [Carmelo] and New Orleans [CP3] are not somehow to be considered as being among the group of best run teams in the NBA, just because their teams are not included on a list of legit contenders for the 2009-2010 season.
What you said about Orlando, Cleveland and San Antonio is in fact “an excuse” … within a pro environment like the NBA.
By and large those teams earned the privileges they’ve accrued in the NBA, on the basis of wise decision-making.
In contrast, the Raptors decided to trade Vince Carter, select Chris Bosh over D-Wade, hire Bryan Colangelo, retain Sam Mitchell, select Andrea Bargnani, trade for Jermaine O’Neal, fire Sam Mitchell, hire Jay Triano, select DeMar DeRozan, etc., etc., etc.
——————————————————–
re: Bryan Colangelo’s mentioning of “on paper” again
Top Notch GM’s in this league do not say stuff like that.
Neither would a Top Notch GM’s say,
“We’ve FIXED ALL of our problems …”
——————————————————–
re: a sports handicapping business being dependent “on paper”
Please go ahead and explain your rationale for making an observation like that.
September 28th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
ohh khandor…well, we’ll alway have that one article that wasnt completely insane….ohhh the memories, the memories
September 28th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
MCBR,
If there’s something that’s “completely insane” from this piece, then, please go right ahead and point it out. I’d be interested to read what exactly you think I might have gotten incorrect.
September 28th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
“you would be hard-pressed to identify a legit NBA expert who would assert that……are not somehow to be considered as being among the group of best run teams in the NBA”
and when BC did what he did with Phoenix… does that not fit inside that exact same criteria? Thereby making him a good GM even if his current team (which is still a work in progress) isn’t a contender now? “just because their teams are not included on a list of legit contenders for the 2009-2010 season.” BC is either a good GM because of what he has accomplished (with or without a title…. and don’t make me list the teams on your list their who do not have titles). Or he is not a good GM because you don’t see a championship in the immediate future (which would then need to apply to most of those teams again). You can’t have it both ways.
As for sports handicapping… do you mean to tell me that you don’t use odds, stats, and % to help make decisions on games, series, seasons, players, player match ups etc? I’d bet you do your fair share of # crunching. Hence, the irony of criticizing work “on paper”.
As for the “excuse” you are talking about. Its raining outside and the property owner wants the grass cut. Cutting grass while its raining can and will both damage the lawnmower and grass. It may be an ‘excuse’ to the property owner who doesn’t live in the area. Still doesn’t change the fact that its raining outside.
September 28th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
You said it was wise basketball acumen and management skills (or something of that ilk) that led to Orlando and Cleveland “earning” the right to draft LBJ or D12? So what exactly was wise about stinking the joint and finishing 17-65 in order to get LBJ or 21-61 to get D12? They were the worst teams in the NBA and got the chance at a clear cut #1. The Raps never got that chance, they got one of the most worst and most muddied drafts ever to choose first overall from
September 28th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Hardcore….that grass cutting analogy=sheer genius…now thats HARDCORE!!!
September 28th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
HR,
Please go ahead and detail what it is that you think Bryan Colangelo did in Phoenix that would warrant characterization as being something other than an “average GM”?
Make sure you note that his father was the principal owner of the team at the time.
It’s a mistake on your part to think that I consider Bryan Colangelo to be an average GM in the NBA primarily because his teams were unable to win a League Championship in Phoenix.
——————————————————–
re: As for sports handicapping… do you mean to tell me that you don’t use odds, stats, and % to help make decisions on games, series, seasons, players, player match ups etc? I’d bet you do your fair share of # crunching. Hence, the irony of criticizing work “on paper”.
Actually, I don’t really use those sorts of things nearly as much as one might think at first glance … although I will readily grant that most others in the industry do use that type of material extensively.
——————————————————–
re: it’s raining where you live
The property owner is at fault in the scenario you’ve developed, if what s/he wants is the grass cut TODAY ONLY. This is a property owner who is guilty of being short-sighted.
Not cutting the grass TODAY because it’s raining may not qualify as an “excuse” … but, failing to cut the grass over a period of 4+ years suggests more than just the fact you might live in Seattle or the Amazon Basin.
September 28th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
MCBR,
The Houston Rockets had a chance to select from Hakeem, Bowie and MJ in the 1984 NBA Draft.
Did they make the wisest possible decision?
The Portland Trail Blazers had a chance to select from Sam Bowie and Michael Jordan, in that same Draft.
Did the Blazers management team make the wisest possible decision?
The Chicago Bulls had a chance to select Michael Jordan or any of the other names on this list:
Sam Perkins, Charles Barkley, Mel Turpin, Alvin Robertson, Lancaster Gordon, Otis Thorpe, Leon Wood, Kevin Willis, Tim McCormick, Jay Humphries and Michael Cage, etc.
in that same Draft.
Did the Bulls make the wisest possible decision?
Who really knows what opportunities each of these three teams were afforded to trade down that specific year?
In the 2004 NBA Draft, the Cleveland Cavaliers had an opportunity to select from LeBron James, Darko Milicic, Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade.
Did the Cavs make the wisest possible decision at the time?
Could the Magic or the Spurs have decided NOT to draft Dwight Howard or Tim Duncan … given the various trade down packages that were offered to them in those specific draft years?
——————————————————–
Whose who would simply choose to say that certain teams in the NBA win the championship based on the “luck” involved with getting the No. 1 [overall] Draft Pick … do not have a leg to stand.
Chauncey Billups was selected with the No. 3 pick in 1997.
Kevin Garnett was selected with the No. 5 pick in 1995.
Dirk Nowitzki was selected with the No. 9 pick in 1998.
Kobe Bryant was selected with the No. 13 pick in 1996.
September 28th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Khandor,
“you would be hard-pressed to identify a legit NBA expert who would assert that…” here I will insert Phoenix under BC….”are not somehow to be considered as being among the group of best run teams in the NBA, just because their teams are not included on a (current) list of legit contenders”
Phoenix was considered a contender and ranked highly every year under BC (2003 -07? or so.. Steve Nash years….sorry can’t remember the exact years). If being considered a contender means you are being run by a good GM then BC deserves that credit. I’m not saying this makes him a good GM or not, however your own evidence of X teams having good GMs or being well run teams are due to them being or having been contenders. I was just using your own criteria. (What BCs father’s role was can not detailed, so how much or little involvement he actually had, or what that involvement was is irrelevant. We can only speculate… and that will prove nothing).
As for the grass cutting it was just an example in referrence to what a excuse is/can be. Its not a matter of the owner or the worker either being right or wrong. What I was getting at is what one calls an ‘excuse’ doesn’t automatically mean it didn’t/isn’t happening thereby having an effect today. So while you can call my reasoning of Duncan, Howard, the trades etc. as an excuse… it still doesn’t change the fact that those are the exact teams in title contention today.
September 28th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
your answer is irrelevant to the point we are making…hindsight is always 20:20, so yes looking back now, MJ was the wisest decision. However, at the time, MJ was NOT the consensus #1 pick, whereas LBJ WAS…no if ands or buts, the guy was the clear cut #1 and had been for about 2 years prior…
AND….no one here is saying that those teams “simply” won on “luck” alone, what I think we are saying (or at least what I am saying) is that the main reason for winning the championship (or contending for that matter), was based on winning the lottery in a year when a clear cut # 1 was available….the those gms did what IMO an average to above average GM could do and assembled a decent core around them with a couple of signings and trades…but without LBJ, the big fundamental, or D12, those teams would not have contended for the title (see, previous seasons records for further proof)
September 28th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
HR,
1. IMO, those who really know the history of the NBA would not have considered those Suns teams as legit contenders, in the first place … given their lack of defense and rebounding.
2. I think you are misinterpreting what “my evidence” speaks to here and not using “my criteria” at all.
3. It is a matter of the owner AND the grass-cutter EACH being wrong, if that grass never ever does get cut.
September 28th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
MCBR,
Have you ever heard me say something about there being “value” in going by a concensus?
September 28th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
MCBR,
re: the those gms did what IMO an average to above average GM could do and assembled a decent core around them with a couple of signings and trades
… and what I’m saying to you is that it’s a gross mistake in judgment to think/assume that “an average” GM has the ability to do that sort of assembling around a star player of that type.
September 28th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
I dont think you can fault BryCo for selecting AB #1 overall…most people felt he would be the best player in the league (over the long haul), even though most felt he wouldnt win the ROY…and I think the jury is still out on who will be the best player in that class over time.
Further to my point, if the Raps had “won” the right to draft D12, or LBJ or TD for that matter, I think we would be looking back at a completely different team history; one of which most likely includes trips to the conference/League finals at least once.
September 28th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
MCRB,
On the contrary …
If the Raptors had won the Lottery any of those specific years, what the evidence suggests is that they might still have managed to do something stupid … while attempting to build their team around Duncan or Lebron, just like Cleveland is doing now by attempting to have Mike Brown lead their squad to a championship.
September 28th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
not really understanding why your asking if I have ever heard you mention anything about consensus, but no I dont recall that ever being a a conversation piece….what I do remember tho is you stating that BC made a mistake in taking AB and i was saying you cant really fault him on that, bc there was no consensus #1.
re: “and what I saying to you is that it’s a gross mistake in judgment to think/assume that “an average” GM has the ability to do that sort of assembling around a star player of that type.”
but thats all speculation isnt it? The actual case is that those gms were handed that gem and have surrounded those all world players with decent supporting players…
September 28th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
MCBR,
And, BTW … I’m not dealing in “hindsight” here.
September 28th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
MCBR,
Since there was no concensus No. 1 Selection in the 2006 Draft this does not mean that what Colangelo did by taking Bargnani was the correct decision.
September 28th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
re: MCRB,
On the contrary …
If the Raptors had won the Lottery any of those specific years, what the evidence suggests is that they might still have managed to do something stupid … while attempting to build their team around Duncan or Lebron, just like Cleveland is doing now by attempting to have Mike Brown lead their squad to a championship.
this is a little confusing…are you inferring Mike Brown is doing a good job or not in building a contender…just wondering…
September 28th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
MCBR,
re: but thats all speculation isnt it? The actual case is that those gms were handed that gem and have surrounded those all world players with decent supporting players…
Actually what would be speculation is to assert that the GMs of these teams smart enough to select these great players and then surround them with the correct supporting cast members, including their coaches, are for some reason NOT to be considered among the Top Notch practicioners in the NBA.
September 28th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
re: MCBR,
Since there was no concensus No. 1 Selection in the 2006 Draft this does not mean that what Colangelo did by taking Bargnani was the correct decision.
ABSOLUTELY CORRECT….and it also means, that at this juncture, you cant say he made the WRONG decision….Bargs’ career isnt over…neither is B.Roy or a large portion of the rest of that class…so for us to make a determination at this point as to whether it was the right or wrong selection is merely a guess…he made the pick for the player that him and most other observers felt would be the best player for the LONG TERM viability of the franchise
September 28th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
MCBR,
To Clarify:
Cleveland is a legit contender THIS season.
Mike Brown has done a poor job to this point in time.
In order for the Cavs to win the title this season Mike Brown will need to improve his coaching a great deal.
September 28th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
I respectfully disagree. I don’t think it’s realistic for any team that didn’t make the playoffs to plan for a championship.
Above all, championship calibre teams require championship calibre players. Championship calibre players are NOT only the Kobes and LeBrons, they are also the invaluable role players who accept a lesser role for the sake of winning. Look at Artest… Would he accept a role like he’ll have in LA anywhere else?
From top to bottom, championship quality players don’t flock to non-playoff teams because they want to be in a place where they can win (often win now).
That’s why I think the only sensible way to win a championship is to do it in steps. Prove that you can make the playoffs. Then tweak and add better players to win a series or two. Then rinse and repeat until you have the type of quality (stars, role players, coaching staff) that want to be a part of the organization.
Let’s also not forget that I think BryCo.’s main goal this season above all else is retaining Chris Bosh, which may or may not correspond to a championship right now.
FINALLY, let’s not forget that the NBA is a business and not everyone is Mark Cuban. And NBA franchises do NOT make money hand over fist. For the investment size, there are undoubtedly many, many more lucrative options. I’m pretty sure the Orlando Magic lost money last year… (not sure the source) and they made it to the Finals! When NO was in their prime and rivaling the best in the West, they couldn’t even fill their seats!
At the end of the day, making the playoffs should be the first step for any team looking to be considered a legitimate place for players interested in winning to go. And being considered a legitimate place for players interested in winning to go to is the first step on the LONG and DIFFICULT journey deep into the post-season.
September 28th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
MCBR,
Some of us happen to be in the business of making correct “guesses”, in advance of said events actually taking place.
Time will tell if those best guesses … aka “projections” or “forecasts”, etc. … turn out to be, either, right or wrong.
Hence …
“The proof of the pudding is in the eating.” - Anonymous.
September 28th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Raptor Cowboy,
The details of what you’ve identified in your comment above are the VERY THINGS which in fact do NEED to be planned for in a comprehensive way over the long term.
It’s the LACK of this LONG TERM planning by the Raptors which has created an environment such that it’s now considered important to make the playoffs in the short term.
September 28th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Definition of Speculation:
: an act or instance of speculating: as a : assumption of unusual business risk in hopes of obtaining commensurate gain b : a transaction involving such speculation
Thats not really what you said is it? I never said that those GMs werent top notch, I just said that most average to above average gms could assemble a winning product with a stud such as LBJ, TD or D12 given to them…
September 28th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
re: MCBR,
Some of us happen to be in the business of making correct “guesses”, in advance of said events actually taking place.
Time will tell if those best guesses … aka “projections” or “forecasts”, etc. … turn out to be, either, right or wrong.
Hence …
“The proof of the pudding is in the eating.” - Anonymous
well, I’m a betting man, and I am betting your business is shit
“I’m not a businessman, I’m a business, man” - Not so Anonymous
September 28th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Khandor,
I’m going to approach this in reverse order.
3. I think you are missing what I’m getting at…..
2. “There are 5 teams with a legitimate shot at winning the title this year…
based on:
7 The quality of their GMing.”
Pretty clear cut I would say.
and
“It takes a high degree of Basketball Acumen to actually win the title in this league …”
was stated after your list of why the 5 teams were in contention (ie. reasons 1-6). Indicating that those GMs had a high degree of basketball acumen (ie. quality GMs). That would indicate to me that a quality b-ball team = good GM.
A GM does 1-6 thereby having a contending team… or he does not. If a GM doesn’t need to do 1-6 to be considered a good GM, then I’m lost as to what makes a good GM. If a GM does 1-6 and creates a contending team, yet can still be considered a less than good GM, I’m lost again. If results matter (ie. a team considered for contention) then you have to look at BCs history as a good GM. If results don’t matter, then any argument stating that BC has done nothing with the Raptors as irrelevant.
1. ” those who really know the history of the NBA would not have considered those Suns teams as legit contenders, in the first place” yet the vast majorty of “experts” still saw the Suns as contenders. They may not have been their selection for champions, but contenders none the less.
September 28th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
That was a nice move - pulling out Colangelo’s statements from last offseason and demonstrating how smoothly they fit into the current context. No doubt people will turn on you for simply stating the facts that BC has offered up for public scrutiny, even though these are his own words and quotations that he has willingly put into the public record the last two years. Far be it for any of our mainstream basketball “reporters” to point out the similarities of the 2008-2009 Colangelo declarations - they’re all too dependent on the team for access or they’re already involved in a direct financial relationship with MLSE (see RAPTORS TV) to bring up the hypocrisy of it all.
Looking over the similarities in the two BC statements you’ve got on offer today, I fear that Bryan has learned nothing from last year’s debacle…he continues to overpay for pieces without considering their impact on the team as a whole (in terms of overall fit or style of play). He continues to collect free agents as if this were a fantasy team - as if any free agent will do, (one minute we want Marion, next minute its Turkoglu) - as if he thinks he can add all of their stats together and take it for granted that we’ll be scoring 125 points per game. Most importantly, he continues to cast a jealous eye towards the short-term goal of the playoffs, rather than the long-term process of building a championship contender (probably because his ego won’t allow him to undertake a genuine rebuild). And its a shame, because four years ago he was presented to the fan base as a man who was capable of articulating the long-term strategy that could conceivably deliver a championship to this city or at least reverse the 15 year course of the franchise. But instead of substance, we’ve been given another short-cut, another quick route to the playoffs that probably won’t involve any pain, but almost certainly will not move us any closer to the winner’s circle.
Because Colangelo cannot live with the teams he has built - he rebuilds them…because he is uncertain of his rebuild’s success - he tells us it will be successful. But we’ve seen this movie already and we know how it ends…if we make the playoffs, we lose in the first round. 2 years from now, I imagine we’ll be trying to move a 33 year old Hedo making 12 mill a season at the trade deadline. But it will all be part of BC’s plan to make this a great team on paper.
September 28th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
HR,
3. re: As for the grass cutting it was just an example in referrence to what a excuse is/can be. Its not a matter of the owner or the worker either being right or wrong. What I was getting at is what one calls an ‘excuse’ doesn’t automatically mean it didn’t/isn’t happening thereby having an effect today. So while you can call my reasoning of Duncan, Howard, the trades etc. as an excuse… it still doesn’t change the fact that those are the exact teams in title contention today.
I think I understand what you were getting at just fine.
i.e. The mere fact that it was raining today means, to you, that it’s okay the grass wasn’t cut and it’s neither the fault of the property owner nor the grass-cutter; it fails to qualify as an excuse if its very existence is a fact.
What I said to you in response is this:
The fact that it is raining today does not mean that this fact should be acceptable as a reason for the fact that the grass has not been cut any of the other 1459 days since this specific owner hired this specific grass-cutter to ensure that this owner’s grass was properly cut, in the first place.
In my book that would be an example of how a simple fact can be used as an excuse for a lack of long term planning.
2. The names of the players I gave you above were not used to demonstrate that the GM’s of those respective teams were of the Top Notch variety, according to me. Those names were provided to demonstrate the inappropriateness of your perspective that suggested only teams with former can’t miss No. 1 [overall] Selections were able to contend for a NBA championship, or those teams gifted with “special trade favour” from another friendly GM around the NBA.
The fact that you would be hard-pressed to find a legit NBA expert to contend that those organizations were not amongst the best run franchises in the League does not mean that I happen to think the mere existence of these types of players on their respective rosters qualifies their GM as being amongst the group of Top Notch GM’s in the game today … even though some of them would fit into this category, IMO, based on a variety of factors, rather than that fact alone.
Hopefully you can see the difference there … although I would certainluy understand if you could not, since it is a rather convoluted explanation, given the way you made extra complicated by mis-using my “evidence” and my “criteria” in the first place.
re: meeting #1-6 in my criteria for being a legit contender
What would make you think someone like me would consider the work of Bryan Colangelo in Phoenix to have accomplished items #1, #2, #3, #5 and #6?
1. The vast majority of so-called NBA experts happen to have been proven wrong, in that regard.
September 28th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
MCBR,
Suitable definitions [please note the plural form of this word] for the term speculation [or to speculate] would include, at least, the following list.
——————————————————–
re: Thats not really what you said is it?
Correct. That’s not what I really said.
For what I really said please use one of the other more applicable definitions.
——————————————————–
re: I just said that most average to above average gms could assemble a winning product with a stud such as LBJ, TD or D12 given to them…
And, what I told you in response is that a viewpoint like that actually involves a gross misperception of just how easy it would be for an “average GM” to succeed in building a championship organization around a stud like LBJ, Duncan or D12.
e.g. Many basketball fans who actually don’t know the first thing about what it takes to win the championship in NBA actually think there are a large number of other coaches in the world who could have succeeded in winning 6 League Championships with a player like Michael Jordan on their roster.
————————————
re: well, I’m a betting man, and I am betting your business is shit
“I’m not a businessman, I’m a business, man” - Not so Anonymous
What exactly would you like to bet on that?
September 28th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Mike D,
Thanks for providing your input.
What’s really interesting is just how easy it is for someone like you … and certain others, as well … to see the merit of this perspective on the Raptors’ current situation, while specific others, like MCBR & HR, for example, cannot seem to recognize this no matter how it is presented to them, i.e. even when it’s a direct quote from the team’s GM, himself:
[paraphrasing on my part]
“We didn’t plan on doing this much this summer but … now we’ve fixed all the problems, on paper …”
IMO, those who think that there is actually a Long Term Plan in place here, with a firm commitment to winning the League Championship [sometime down-the-road], are delusional.
September 29th, 2009 at 12:07 am
Mike D injects some sanity into the discussion!! LOL
At this point, BC sounds like a snake-oil salesman.
For those who have been defending BC on the basis of his work in PHX — look how far that team has fallen, and how fast. Despite their relatively successful few years, the writing was on the wall for that team — the biggest bonehead move obviously being passing up Rondo in the draft only to sign Marcus Banks to an inflated deal. Blame it on Kerr if you want, but at least he had the balls to realize they weren’t going to win it all with the lineup they had.
As for the raps - I’m tired of seeing a “new” team every year. In case anyone’s noticed, elite level teams in the NBA are not “purchased,” they are built. Trades are what can take a good team and make them a great one, not what can take a bad team and make them a great one. There’s no long term plan in place here, that much should be painfully obvious.
September 29th, 2009 at 2:13 pm