How the Western Conference looks for ’09-10, based on individual player ratings, by position

When evaluating where teams stand in relationship to their competition, it’s important to assess each player in the conference, by position, combining their individual skill-sets in all three main phases of the game … i.e. Offense, Defense & Rebounding.

By doing something like this …

Part I

WESTERN CONFERENCE PLAYER RATINGS BY POSITION FOR PROJECTED STARTERS, 2009-2010

#

PG

OG

SF

PF

C

1

Williams-D

Bryant

Jefferson

Gasol-P

Duncan

2

Billups

Roy

Anthony

Scola

Nowitzki

3

Paul

Jackson-S

Artest

Aldridge

Stoudemire

4

Nash

Richardson

Battier

McDyess

Bynum

5

Parker-T

Iverson

Howard-Jos

West-D

Nene

6

Kidd

Smith-JR

Hill

Marion

Przybilla

7

Westbrook

Ariza

Durant

Boozer

Jefferson-A

8

Brooks

Martin-Kev

Gay

Randolph-A

Okafor

9

Fisher

Finley

Posey

Martin-Ken

Biedrins

10

Davis-B

Terry

Nocioni

Green-J

Okur

11

Sessions

Stojakovic

Maggette

Love

Gasol-M

12

Blake

Miles-CJ

Thornton

Griffin-B

Collison

13

Ellis

Gordon-E

Batum

Thompson-J

Kaman

14

Conley

Harden

Brewer-R

Amundson

Hawes

15

Evans-T

Wilkens

Brewer-C?

Randolph-Z

Andersen-D

Part II

WESTERN CONFERENCE TEAM RATINGS BY POSITION

FOR PROJECTED STARTERS, 2009-2010

Team

PG

#

OG

#

SF

#

PF

#

C

#

TOT

#

LAL

Derek

Fisher

9

Kobe

Bryant

1

Ron

Artest

3

Pau

Gasol

1

Andrew

Bynum

4

18

1

DEN

Chauncey

Billups

2

JR

Smith

6

Carmelo

Anthony

2

Kenyon

Martin

9

Nene

5

24

3

POR

Steve

Blake

12

Brandon

Roy

2

Nicolas

Batum

13

LaMarcus

Aldridge

3

Joel

Przybilla

6

36

T6

SAS

Tony

Parker

5

Michael

Finley

9

Richard

Jefferson

1

Antonio

McDyess

4

Tim

Duncan

1

20

2

HOU

Aaron

Brooks

8

Trevor

Ariza

7

Shane

Battier

4

Luis

Scola

2

David

Andersen

15

36

T6

DAL

Jason

Kidd

6

Jason

Terry

10

Josh

Howard

5

Shawn

Marion

6

Dirk

Nowitzki

2

29

4

NOH

Chris

Paul

3

Peja

Stojakovic

11

James

Posey

9

David

West

5

Emeka

Okafor

8

36

T6

UTA

Deron

Williams

1

CJ

Miles

12

Ronnie

Brewer

14

Carlos

Boozer

7

Mehmet

Okur

10

44

T9

PHO

Steve

Nash

4

Jason

Richardson

4

Grant

Hill

6

Luis

Amundson

14

Amare

Stoudemire

3

31

5

GSW

Monta

Ellis

13

Stephen

Jackson

3

Corey

Maggette

11

Anthony

Randolph

8

Andris

Biedrins

9

44

T9

MEM

Mike

Conley

14

Allen

Iverson

5

Rudy

Gay

8

Zac

Randolph

15

Marc

Gasol

11

53

12

MIN

Ramon

Sessions

11

Damien

Wilkens

15

Corey

Brewer

15

Kevin

Love

11

Al

Jefferson

7

59

13

OKC

Russell

Westbrook

7

James

Harden

14

Kevin

Durant

7

Jeff

Green

10

Nick

Collison

12

50

11

LAC

Baron

Davis

10

Eric

Gordon

13

Al

Thornton

12

Blake

Griffin

12

Chris

Kaman

13

60

T14

SAC

Tyreke

Evans

15

Kevin

Martin

8

Andres

Nocioni

10

Jason

Thompson

13

Spencer

Hawes

14

60

T14

Part III

WESTERN CONFERENCE PLAYER RATINGS BY POSITION FOR PROJECTED BACK-UPS, 2009-2010

#

PG

OG

SF

PF

C

1

Miller-A

Webster

Ginobili

Odom

Oden

2

Farmar

Barbosa

Kirilenko

Millsap

Andersen-C

3

Hill-Ge

Vujacic

Walton

Outlaw

Landry

4

Carter-A

Mayo

Fernandez

Gooden

Turiaf

5

Lowry

Butler-R

Mason-D

Bonner

Camby

6

Udrih

Afflalo

Barry

Hayes-C

Krstic

7

Barea

Mason-R

Thomas-Ti

Balkman

Ratliff

8

Watson-CJ

Peterson

Azubuike

Dudley

Dampier

9

Price

Korver

Thomas-Ke

Jordan-D

Armstrong

10

Jaric

Ross-Q

Gomes

Diogu

Koufos

11

Dragic

Weaver

Davis-R

Casspi

Lopez-R

12

Livingston

Garcia

Wright-J

Wright-B

Thabeet

13

Telfair

Curry-S

Clark

Arthur

Powell

14

Collison-D

Ellington

Young-S

Ibaka

Hollins

15

Flynn

Budinger

Vaden

Cardinal

May

Part IV

WESTERN CONFERENCE TEAM RATINGS BY POSITION

FOR PROJECTED BACK-UPS, 2009-2010

Team

PG

#

OG

#

SF

#

PF

#

C

#

TOT

#

LAL

Jordan

Farmar

2

Sasha

Vujacic

3

Luke

Walton

3

Lamar

Odom

1

Josh

Powell

13

22

2

DEN

Anthony

Carter

4

Arron

Afflalo

6

Desmond Mason

5

Renaldo

Balkman

7

Chris Andersen

2

24

3

POR

Andre

Miller

1

Martell

Webster

1

Rudy

Fernandez

4

Travis

Outlaw

3

Greg

Oden

1

10

1

SAS

George

Hill

3

Roger

Mason

7

Manu

Ginobili

1

Matt

Bonner

5

Theo

Ratliff

7

23

4

HOU

Kyle

Lowry

5

Chase

Budinger

15

Brent

Barry

6

Chuck

Hayes

6

Carl

Landry

3

35

6

DAL

JJ
Barea

7

Quintin

Ross

10

Tim

Thomas

7

Drew

Gooden

4

Erick

Dampier

8

36

7

NOH

Darren

Collison

14

Morris

Peterson

8

Julian

Wright

12

Ike

Diogu

10

Hilton

Armstrong

9

53

T11

UTA

Ronnie

Price

9

Kyle

Korver

9

Andrei

Kirilenko

2

Paul

Millsap

2

Kosta

Koufos

10

32

5

PHO

Goren

Dragic

11

Leandro Barbosa

2

Earl

Clark

13

Jared

Dudley

8

Robin

Lopez

11

45

T9

GSW

CJ

Watson

8

Stephon

Curry

13

Kelena

Azubuike

8

Brandon

Wright

12

Ronny

Turiaf

4

45

T9

MEM

Marco

Jaric

10

OJ

Mayo

4

Sam

Young

14

Darrell

Arthur

13

Hasheem

Thabeet

12

53

T11

MIN

Jonny

Flynn

15

Wayne

Ellington

14

Ryan

Gomes

10

Brian

Cardinal

15

Ryan

Hollins

14

68

15

OKC

Shaun

Livingston

12

Kyle

Weaver

11

Robert Vaden

15

Serge

Ibaka

14

Nenad

Krstic

6

58

14

LAC

Sebastien

Telfair

13

Rasual Butler

5

Ricky

Davis

11

DeAndre

Jordan

9

Marcus Camby

5

43

8

SAC

Beno

Udrih

6

Francisco

Garcia

12

Kenny

Thomas

9

Omri

Casspi

11

Sean

May

15

53

T13

Part V

WESTERN CONFERENCE TEAM RATINGS BY POSITION FOR STARTERS + BACK-UPS, 2009-2010

Team

STARTERS

BACK-UPS

TOTAL

RANK

LAL

18

22

40

1

DEN

24

24

48

4

POR

36

10

46

3

SAS

20

23

43

2

HOU

36

35

71

6

DAL

29

36

65

5

NOH

36

53

89

T9

UTA

44

32

75

7

PHO

31

45

76

8

GSW

44

45

89

T9

MEM

53

53

106

12

MIN

59

68

127

15

OKC

50

58

108

13

LAC

60

43

103

11

SAC

60

53

113

14

Part VI

WESTERN CONFERENCE EXPECTED STANDINGS BASED ON PLAYER RATINGS BY POSITION, 2009-2010

No.

Team

1

Los Angeles Lakers

2

San Antonio Spurs

3

Portland Trail Blazers

4

Denver Nuggets

5

Dallas Mavericks

6

Houston Rockets

7

Utah Jazz

8

Phoenix Suns

T9

New Orleans Hornets

T9

Golden State Warriors

11

Los Angeles Clippers

12

Memphis Grizzlies

13

Oklahoma City Thunder

14

Sacramento Kings

15

Minnesota Timberwolves

… which compares:

* Each player to his counter-parts at the PG, OG, SF, PF & C position, respectively;

* Each group of “Starters” vs one another;

* Each group of “Back-ups” vs one another;

* Each group of “Starters + Back-ups” vs one another;

an accurate picture begins to develop, regarding the collective talents of these individual teams.

SUMMARY

ITEM 1
The chief reason many NBA observers see the Houston Rockets [Rated #6, above, based on player talent] as a Non-playoff team this season is because of the expected absences of Yao Ming and Tracy McGrady from their everyday line-up. Close consideration of their other Key Rotation Players, however, suggests that the Rockets will still have enough talent to remain highly competitive in the WC standings this season.

ITEM 2
By adding Key Rotation Players like Richard Jefferson, Antonio McDyess and, possibly, Theo Ratliff, the San Antonio Spurs have re-positioned themselves near the top of the conference, in terms of overall NBA talent. If their 6th Man, Manu Ginobili, can regain his health after two injury-plagued seasons, the Men in Black should be a force again in the playoffs.

ITEM 3
There should be another exceptionally close race this season for the lower-tier playoff spots in the WC, between the likes of Houston, [6/71], Utah [7/75], Phoenix [8/76], New Orleans [T9/89] and Golden State [T9/89], based on the talent level of these teams.

Related:

Summer Forecast: ’09-10 West standings

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60 Responses to “How the Western Conference looks for ’09-10, based on individual player ratings, by position”

  1. asdf Says:

    Monta Ellis and Andris Biedrins should be much higher on that list.
    Ellis worse than sessions, blake, westbrook, brooks, fisher? Dont make me laugh. Biedrins should be placed above przybilla, jefferson, nene, and bynum too. What are you basing this on?
    R. jefferson the best small forward in the west? below carmelo? and durant at 7? What are you thinking?
    Also, Maggette is not a starter.

  2. Lukasz Says:

    I hope no.1 on SF is not Richard Jefferson. Thats just hilarious. He might not even be top 5. It should go Carmelo, Durant, Artest, Josh Howard, and then possibly RJ but I would still take Gay over him. This is ridiculous. You do realize that you have Ariza at guard, although hes only played guard for a few minutes in his ENTIRE career. You have Zach Randolph over.. anyone on that entire list. You have Al Jefferson at 6 in Centers even tho hes no. 4 PF as neither Dirk or Duncan start at Center. You have Przybilla who most likely wont start for much of the season over players like Okur, Biedrins, and Kaman. As well as Okafor for that matter who is great defender. You have Battier who i’ll galdly admit is a top 5 defender in this league at no.4 even tho he will not start for his own team.. you have S.Jackson who is an abismol player whos stats are highly jacked up by an extremely fast tempo. Regardless he wants out of GS however no one will most likely want to take him, especially as a starter. This ranking was just funny to look at.

  3. Scott G Says:

    Spurs are FAR better than most people realize, assuming they stay healthy. But, that’s a big IF over a long season and post-season.

    Oh, and I may be wrong, but I think HOU’s backup PG is named Kyle, not Nick ;)

  4. NJFAn Says:

    what extremely powerful hallucinogen are u on?
    these rankings make as much sense as the raiders front office.\

    i wont get into the debatable second tier players but cmon chris paul no 3 pg in the west???? cuz he got outplayed in one playoff series?? hes the best pg in the nba any day of the year… and richard jefferson above carmelo anthony? there is not a single thing that carmelo doesnt do better, hes the better defender, rebounder and passer and scores more with a higher fg% plus he is oh so clutch…. rj??? not so much

  5. khandor Says:

    Scott G.,

    Thanks for catching my Freudian slip, re: Lowry vs Lowery.

    With the kick-off of NFL Season tonight, I must have had a case of “football on the brain” when I wrote that. :-)

  6. khandor Says:

    asdf,

    Welcome aboard! :-)

    re: Ellis & Biedrins

    It would be fair to say that I value certain things at the PG and C positions which are far from being strengths of Monta & Andris.

    re: RJ

    While Melo is a better defender/rebounder at the #3/SF-#4/PF position; Richard is a better defender/rebounder at the #3/SF-#2/OG position. Anthony is a superior scorer, no doubt, but he can also be effectively eliminated from an important playoff game by a defender/rebounder like RJ, who has a quickness advantage over him while still being physically strong enough to bang him inside, in addition to being a capable scorer in his own right.

    When the Spurs go with Ginobili and Jefferson together on the Wings, at crunch time, they will be too difficult for the duo of JR Smth & Carmelo Anthony to handle.

    re: Maggette as a starter

    If Don Nelson decides to run with the 5-Man unit I’ve set out above, the Warriors will be a legit threat for the No. 8 spot in the WC this season.

  7. J Says:

    This rankings are really stupid. Especially the PGs and SFs. WTF?

  8. khandor Says:

    Lukasz,

    Welcome aboard! :-)

    re: Jefferson vs Anthony

    Please see what I’ve written in reply to asdf above.

    One of the beautiful things about the game is how different people can see it differently.

    When the playoffs arrive in the spring, it will be interesting to see if Carmelo actually gets the better of RJ, or, perhaps, vice versa.

    The fact is … if Jefferson was going to a team other than the Spurs – with Popovich, Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, McDyess, etc. – he would not be on the top of my list at the #3/SF position.

    —————————————————-

    * Expect to see Kevin Love as the #4/PF for the T-Wolves with Al Jefferson at the #5/C position.

    * Expect to see Rick Carlisle figure out that the best way for him to play Josh Howard [#3/SF/] and Sharion Marion [#4/PF] togther this season is to shift Dirk Nowitzki to the C position.

    * Expect Greg Popovich to go with the 5-Man unit of Duncan, McDyess [#4/PF], Jefferson [#3/SF], Ginobili [#2/OG] and Parker [#1/PG] with the game on the line, in which case, the Big Fundamental is most assuredly the Spurs’ Center.

    * Expect Nate McMillan to continue to start Joel Przybilla until Greg Oden shows on a consistent basis that he is a better complementary Center to Brandon Roy. Eventually, Greg is going to take the bulk of the PT at this spot for the Blazers … it just might not be this coming season.

    * Expect Rick Adelman to start Shane Battier at whatever position he fits best this season with the Rockets … in the absence of Yao & T-Mac. Understanding properly who the Rockets best remaining players are … e.g. Scola, Battier, Ariza, Landry and Brooks … means that there might be all sorts of unusual line-up combinations in Houston this year.

    * Although you might not like Stephen Jackson as a person or a player, at the #2/OG position, he is far removed from being abysmal … given the way in which he can rebound & defend this specific spot. :-)

  9. khandor Says:

    NJFan,

    Welcome aboard! :-)

    FYI …

    * I happen to be a drug-free person. ;)

    * Chris Paul routines gets outplayed by Deron Williams and the Jazz routinely win their games vs the Hornets. CP3 is terrific … but, as a smallish PG who can get abused by the likes of Dahntay Jones, he is not a superior PG to Deron.

    * Carmelo Anthony is a very good NBA player. Richard Jefferson, however … on the Spurs … is a very talented and versatile player, as well. I have no objections with those who might prefer Melo. My preference is for RJ, based on what I’ve written above.

  10. Garron Says:

    I don’t know about the drug free bit. You ranked Kevin Durant 7th…

    This guys all-worldly. And he’s ranked below RJ? Also, we all hate Zach Randolph, but you REALLY rank a 20-10 guy below Amundson?

  11. khandor Says:

    Garron,

    Welcome aboard! :-)

    Having a good sense of humour is always appreciated in this corner. ;)

    Durant is going to be a terrific SF in the immediate future, at which time it will not longer be a contest which of these two players is superior to the other. However, until such time arrives, KD still has a ways to go … improving his defense, rebounding and shot selection … before becoming the best SF in the WC.

    ————————————

    re: Amundson vs Zach Randolph

    Unlike others, perhaps, I don’t hate Zach Randolph at all.

    Zach is a superior 1-on-1 offensive player at the PF position.

    There’s a lot more involved with playing high level basketball than just that, however.

    Luis, by comparison, is a better defender, far more athletic, a legit shot-blocker, and a much better fit, overall … specifically, in an up-tempo running game … beside players like Stoudemire [C] & Nash [PG].

  12. Garrett Says:

    Kenny Thomas is not a SF. He is an albatross PF on the kings, even behind Sean May. Casspi is slated to be a SF. Backups should probably be Udrih (assuming Evans starts from day one), Garcia, Casspi or Greene, Brockman, May.

  13. kiddy Says:

    do u actually know anything about basketball, these xharts ar hhorrible. but hey at least it attracts viewers lol

  14. khandor Says:

    Garrett,

    You’re correct in saying that Kenny Thomas isn’t much of a SF.

    It’s because of the awkward configuration of the Kings roster at present that I’ve chosen to list him at this back-up position, as a “tweener” … and the fact that I think Casspi is about to beat him out as the leading bench player for Sacramento with the size required to function effectively at the PF position.

    If Casspi can’t do this successfully … then, the Kings are going to struggle again this season.

  15. khandor Says:

    kiddy,

    Once you’ve put charts like these together yourself, please be sure to visit here again and let me know what the results are.

    e.g. How the team totals compare to one another in each of the respective conferences, based on your combined ratings.

    When you do it yourself, what I think you will/might find is that there’s a disparity between what you happen to think of individual players at respective positions and the overall talent level of the teams in that conference when you combine the players’ individual ratings together.

    When those types of disparities exist it means that one [or, perhaps, both] of your sets of impressions is in fact off base.

    It’s a very interesting exercise for those who want to improve their understanding of how the NBA game actually works, based on individual match-ups.

  16. kiddy Says:

    but ur bad at it……look at all ur comments on most of ur blogs, we know about basketballl. probably even more than you. you are just bad at assessing players talent when u ran kevin durant 7th. and dont gimmie a long explanation to why u did. but seriously work on ur charts. but again ur bringing in traffic which is never bad….but the charts are

  17. khandor Says:

    kiddy,

    1 Richard Jefferson … the best SF in the WC, based on:

    - defending SFs & OGs, perimeter & interior
    - rebounding
    - perimeter shooting
    - mid-range shooting
    - driving & finishing at the rim
    - + Ast:TO
    - ballhandling ability
    - versatility

    2 Carmelo Anthony … the best all around offensive SF in the WC
    3 Ron Artest … hurt by his erratic temperment
    4 Shane Battier … the best defensive SF in the WC, by a wide margin
    5 Josh Howard … a solid player but without a major match-up advantage
    6 Grant Hill … a former top SF who could do it all; in decline now
    7 Kevin Durant … a really good offensive SF who will be terrific one day; but does not deserve to be higher on this list yet

    Others are free to disagree, if they wish.

    If he can remain healthy … RJ is due for a big year playing for Gregg Popovich, beside the likes of Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, McDyess, etc.

  18. kiddy Says:

    i asked u to spare me the explanation-_-…but since you did that may i point out that u ranked shane battier higher than durant by 3. shane being a better SF than Durant overall= ur a f***ing idiot…..realy realy huge idiot. no way shane is better overall than durant. idiot – do u get payed?or is this an indipendant blog cuz u suck. quit. please. actually dont cuz i like commenting so keep it up.. but im,prove.

    Edit: kiddy, cursing is a no-no on this blog.

  19. Noonan Says:

    kiddy,

    Please stop posting here, and anywhere else on the internet for that matter, until you graduate high school or get your GED. You sound like an absolute child.

    These are obviously SUBJECTIVE rankings based on SUBJECTIVE criteria. Khandor clearly spelled out his reasoning for the rankings both in the charts and again (several times) in the comments section.

    Berating someone for their opinion on a subjective matter just makes you look ridiculous.

    Example:

    Me: “I think Rocky Road ice cream is the best. Here are some charts to show my reasoning and some additional comments to support my rationale.”

    You: “Do you know anything about ice cream? Anyone who has RR above mint chocolate chip is just an idiot and should quit writing about such things.”

    You don’t have to agree with these OPINIONS, but if you’ll notice, the other commentors at least tried to engage in a discussion/debate. Not you. In fact, you explicitly asked for no discussion.

    I also have to assume (given the utter lack of cognitive substance in your post) that the irony of calling someone a “f#%*ing idiot” in a post filled with so many spelling errors is lost on you.

    BTW – I agree that Durant is a much better SF than Battier.

  20. khandor Says:

    Noonan,

    Welcome aboard! :-)

    Always a pleasure to have intelligent commentors drop by for a visit.

    ——————————

    re: Battier

    Shane is a relatively unique player/SF in the NBA … who is just so good defensively [and rebounding-wise] that many top notch coaches [e.g. Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, Gregg Popovich, Chuck Daly, KC Jones, Bill Sharman, etc.] would choose to go with him in a 1-on-1 individual match-up vs a behemoth like Kobe or Lebron or Pierce or Wade, etc., way way before an offensively talented but defensive/rebounding limited player/SF like Kevin Durant.

    Durantula is eventually going to be a beast to deal with … but he isn’t quite there yet vs an experienced defensive/rebounding ACE like Battier, who has the ability to neutralize [i.e. minimize the effectiveness] of the best SF’s in the NBA.

  21. Noonan Says:

    Durant last season: 25pts, 6.5rbs, 3 ast, 1.3stl, .7blk
    Battier last season: 7.3pts, 5rbs, 2.3 ast, .8stl, .9blk

    Battier is at the peak, or backside, of his defensive abilities (and offensive for that matter). His production in nearly every statistical category has either remained the same or fallen off from his previous two years.

    Conversely, Durant will be better this season than he was last season and improved in all offensive categories after his first year while maintaining his defensive stats.

    There is a chasm between the two on both sides of the ball. The difference is that unlike many other defensively challenged players, Durant wants to get better, practices hard to shore up his game and really just needs another year or so of muscle building to be an exceptional defender to go along with his offensive superiority.

    I realize that there are all sorts of “Bowen-like” nuances to Battier’s game that are not reflected in any statistic. I am also aware of the high regard that elite level coaches have for his game.

    But if you look at the start of this season in a vacuum, as I am assuming is the premise of your season rankings, would you really take Battier over Durant at SF? Would any of those coaches you mentioned?

    I find it really hard to believe that anyone would.

  22. khandor Says:

    Noonan,

    I see and agree with each point of your description, re: Durantula.

    Instead of looking at the beginning of this season in a vacuum, however, I’d suggest taking the following approach instead:

    If there was a single playoff game to be played this season with the winning team designated as the NBA champs … if your team’s opponent was …

    1. LA Lakers, Kobe Bryant & Ron Artest
    2. Cleveland Cavaliers, Lebron James & Anthony Parker
    3. Boston Celtics, Paul Pierce & Ray Allen
    3. Orlando Magic, Vince Carter & Mickael Pietrus

    then, which SF would you [or the elite level coaches in the history of the NBA] prefer to have lining up for you:

    A. The current version of Kevin Durant;

    or,

    B. The current version of Shane Battier?

    From my perspective, I’d prefer to go to war right now with Shane Battier [or Richard Jefferson?] … plus a running mate like Manu Ginobili, for example], rather than Kevin Durant.

    In contrast to your take …

    I find it relatively easy to believe that the vast majority of NBA fans would actually prefer to take Kevin Durant, in the case I’ve outlined above, given his superior offensive ability; while the vast majority of elite level NBA coaches would in fact prefer to take Shane Battier, given his superior defensive/rebounding ability, in the individual match-up game.

    Although we might have a different opinion about this, at this early stage of Durant’s career, I appreciate the intelligent way you communicate your ideas about the game. :-)

  23. kiddy Says:

    actually i went through grades 4-11 in the gifted program and am attending university and im 17…..mental capacity is up there clearly. my portfolio is almost enough to get me into yale next year…please dont diss my intelligence cuz theres a certain way i wrie on my comp, and a certain way i write when it matters to be punctual. i felt offended by the comment refering to how i may not have been an intelligent commentor. i feel like i can say i am very academicaly successful without being concieted at all. an apology would be great:P……..im not stupid, and i dont like what was suggested about me here. but i do think its very foolish to choose battier over durant. and i actually think more than 60% of people would choose kevin durant in the situation u proposed….and its not like that was the only thing wrong with you’re chart…derek fisher is rated higher than baron davis, i think that even with all of his problems baron davis is a much better, more valuable asset the derek fisher. and i only said i didnt want a long explanation because i felt that it would be pointless as we already did so much debating before. ok? no matter what khindur or w.e says my opinions wont change, because they are educated….so dont give me paragrapghs of explanations…durant is betteer than battier.

  24. Noonan Says:

    And I have multiple degrees from prestigious universities, but that isn’t the point, is it? Your post made you sound juvenile and misguided (at best) and I called you out for it.

    Secondly, did you read the rest of my post? I not only agreed with you about Durant over Battier, I made a decent case using facts, statistics and reasoned arguments. I even did it without calling anyone an “effing idiot!”

    It’s great that you have opinions and want to share them in a forum such as this. But simply stating your claim, telling someone they are stupid for thinking otherwise and calling for no further discussion on the matter really just makes you sound…well…juvenile and misguided (regardless of your GT classes, university status and “yale quality portfolio”).

  25. khandor Says:

    kiddy,

    Please see the reply comment which I’ve left for you in the other thread.

    ——————————————————–

    Noonan,

    Thanks for expressing your opinions on these subjects.

    IMO, it’s valuable for others to see and read how reasonable people can choose to exchange their thoughts and ideas about a topic, via the internet, agree or disagree with one another, and still refrain from becoming disagreeable or intentionally insulting.

  26. khandor Says:

    kiddy,

    re: Baron Davis vs Derek Fisher

    Although Baron SHOULD be a better PG than D-Fish … in my opinion … he is not, when you consider all three main phases of the game, ie. Defense, Offense & Rebounding, not to mention a whole host of other attributes, as well, which are vital to include when properly evaluating the merits of a specific player match-up at this specific position.

    In a single-game elimination … there is no doubt whatsoever which of these two PG’s I would choose to have at the helm for my team.

  27. kiddy Says:

    i called him an idiot for even arguing his point when i explained to him why he was clearly mistaken….if u bothered to read more than one of my posts. and why do u feel like calling me misguided and juvenile would help anything? and like the durant thing, derek fisher cannot match up with baron davis statisticaly, in a playoff series matchup, nor at derek’s age will he be able to be held in the same category as baron, though d-fish was a big part of l.a’s championchip run, baron davis is a better all around player.

  28. khandor Says:

    kiddy,

    Please see the PS. added to the reply I left for you in the other thread.

    Thanks, in advance.

  29. mr.hunter Says:

    wow u ranked d.fish higher than baron davis? dude whats up with that?

  30. mr.hunter Says:

    maybe i should just make my own list lmao

  31. khandor Says:

    dude,

    Perhaps I value defense and such things as having a winner’s attitude, at the PG position, a tad more than you do. :-)

    Most NBA fans place way too much emphasis on a player’s “offensive numbers” when evaluating actual effectiveness.

  32. mr.hunter Says:

    but baron is a better player tho

  33. khandor Says:

    mr. hunter,

    If you take all the different things which a player can do on a basketball court, at any given point in time … which includes specific things on offense, defense and rebounding … and add them all together with an array of intangibles … e.g. decision-making skills, leadership skills, emotional stability, etc … that are absolutely crucial at the PG position … IMO, Baron Davis is not a better PG than Derek Fisher.

    Baron Davis is a better offensive player with the ball in his hands than Derek Fisher is … BUT, that’s all he’s been better at, over the course of his NBA career to-date.

  34. mr.hunter Says:

    o cmon you would honestly pick d fish over baron davis right now if you had a choice?

  35. Scott G Says:

    I wouldn’t, at least not if I had a good team.

    I’ll give you this — B-Diddy might be a more valuable player than D-Fish on a BAD team, because of his superior firepower.

    On a team that has other talented players, however, what Fish brings is a complimentary set of solid attributes that means more to a WINNING team.

    Put Fish on the Clips, he’s a slightly worse player; put Diddy on the Lakers, and he’s a significantly worse player.

  36. khandor Says:

    mr. hunter,

    In my book, what Scott G. said is 100% accurate.

  37. khandor Says:

    Scott G.,

    As an aside … I’d like your opinion on another matter, which I have on the burner right now, elsewhere on the internet, if at all possible.

    Here are the specific questions for you to consider.

    As an elite level basketball player …

    Q1. Would you prefer to play on a team that uses [Option 1] a four-guard [or more?] rotation at the PG and OG positions, or a team that uses [Option 2] a three-guard rotation, almost exclusively, at these two positions?

    Q2. [in general terms] Do you think Option 1 or Option 2 would be more effective?

    … given that:

    - you are 1 of the 3 guards in the three-guard rotation
    - the three-guard rotation looks like this:

    PG #1 + OG #1
    PG#1 + OG-PG #2
    OG-PG #2 + OG #1
    PG #1 + OG #1
    etc.

    - with each of the guards in question rated as quality players at their respective positions
    - with PG #1 listed as 6-5, 205; OG-PG #2 listed as 6-3, 200; and OG #1 listed as 6-7, 193

    - the four-guard rotation looks like this, for example:

    PG #1 + OG #1
    PG #2 + OG-PG #2
    PG #1 + OG #1
    etc.

    - with PG #2 listed as 6-0, 185

    Thanks, in advance. :-)

    ——————————————————–

    PS. I am thinking of writing a separate blog entry on this very subject and would like to hear the opinion of someone who I respect, as a former player, before making that decision.

  38. dandresden Says:

    khandor, where can i read about your long list of elite basketball accomplishments, as a coach or player? your lists are so fascinating and “on-the-money” that i feel you must be a great basketball mind posting these list under a non-de-plume, so that all of your fans don’t recognize you. cmon spill the beans, who are you? pat riley? larry brown? john amici?

  39. dandresden Says:

    also scott g, he is referring to the pistons this year in his post about 4 guards vs 3 guards, something which he has demonstrated he has no f***ing clue as to what he is talking about.

    Edit: Unfortunately for you, dan, language of that sort isn’t permitted on this blog.

  40. dandresden Says:

    scott g

    the only answer he will accept is a 3 guard line-up, but only if one of those 3 guards is not will bynum. if you look at bynums numbers when khandor and him went to grade school together they are pretty good. 25.4 swirlies given to khandor, 3.5 stolen chicks from khandor, and 6.7 atomic wedgies given, and thats as a 5 grader playing on the varsity team.

  41. khandor Says:

    dandresden,

    Hopefully Scott G. has the time it takes to answer the questions I’ve asked.

    Thankfully, as well, Scott G. is an intelligent commentor who already knows that he and I do not have to agree about a specific subject in order to engage in productive dialogue with one another concerning the NBA game.

    You should try it sometime. It might grow on you.

    ——————————-

    PS. FYI … The fact is: I’ve never been “swirlied” in my life; nor lost or had a “chick” stolen from me; nor been subjected to a “wedgie”. If, however, these are things which have been done to you, in your life, you have my most sincere sympathy.

    PPS. FYI … I believe the correct term is “noms de plume“. :-)

  42. Scott G Says:

    Look at all the fun that I’ve missed! ;)

    IMO, the 3-guard lineup is indeed better, for one reason — the combination of a small PG with a small OG in the second part of the 4-guard rotation would make me worry. I would say that the 4-guard rotation could indeed work, provided the small PG plays exclusively with the big OG, but the big OG seems like he likely doesn’t have the physical strength to be a strong rebounder for his position. Given the 6-7 height, seems likely that he’d at least be a solid rebounder, but perhaps not one who can cover for others (given the likely lack of strength).

    That said, I don’t think a small backcourt ALWAYS hurts – it just depends on the matchups. Against Nash + Barbosa, for example, I don’t think there’s an issue. Same thing against Nelson + Redick (when VC is out of the game). Against Fish + Kobe, D-Will + Brewer, Williams + Iggy, etc, however, the size disadvantage becomes much more of a disadvantage.

    Look forward to the breakdown…

    dandresden — why the hate? if you disagree with someone’s opinions, that’s fine – state your piece and be done with it. Just don’t expect them to fold and agree with yours…

  43. khandor Says:

    Scott G.,

    Unfortunately, there will be no follow-up comment here from dandresden.

    After leaving his initial messages … which were appropriate enough, in both form and content … dan’s next 30+ messages were filled with curse words and/or various types of derogatory “suggestions” which you might expect to find scribbled on the wall in the men’s bathroom of a truckstop along Route 66. :-)

    FWIW, dan seems to be an active participant on the Detroit Pistons fanbase site [Detroitbadboys.com], and like certain others there, is not a “fan” of what I’ve written there about the Pistons chances for success this season, if they choose to go with an Option 2 rotation, which limits the PT for Will Bynum, in favour of Rodney Stuckey and Ben Gordon at the Point, for the Pistons this season, in spite of my belief that they have a solid shot at re-establishing their position amongst the average teams in the EC in contention for a mid-to-lower tier playoff spot again this season.

    As we both know already … “regular NBA fans” have a tendency to be less appreciative of my perspective on the game than do others with more extensive experience as elite level players and/coaches, and/or those who prefer to keep an open mind about learning new and different things about the game compared with what they happen to know already.

    IMO, the merits of a three-guard rotation vs a four-guard one … as outlined above … might well prove to be an interesting topic for me to delve into further in a separate entry on this blog.

  44. Scott G Says:

    LOL — why on earth would they rather Bynum over either of those guys?

    And why on earth would someone care enough about an anonymous opinion to post 30+ messages? I didn’t really want a response from him; just wanted to state my opinion… isn’t that what this is all about anyhow? sigh…

  45. khandor Says:

    For the benefit of those who may not have agreed with my player individual ratings at the #3/SF position in the WC … Kelly Dwyer’s take on the last decade’s best performers in the NBA, at this specific position, is now on display … Right Here.

    Cheers

  46. krbal Says:

    I get that the lists are supposed to be “subjective”. But subjective only carries so much latitude. If a person says that Hitler did more good for this world than any single President of the United States of America, they deserve to get laughed at for their “subjective” opinion. Noonan’s example (ice cream) doesn’t really fit. This isn’t khandor’s “favorite players” list. This is a rankings list. Skill and production are somewhat objective and they play a large part in determining rankings. The crutch of “subjectivity” only goes so far until it becomes irritating, leading to examples like:

    - Having Przybilla at 6 and then not having a broadly comparable guy like Chris Andersen on a list at all (PF or C, your choice). Unfair to the Birdman.

    - Having Eric Gordon as the 13th best off guard behind a guy like CJ Miles (who is actually the Jazz’s starting SF while Brewer is the SG) is utterly laughable. Gordon averaged 18.4 ppg last year once he became a starter (65 games). Gordon also plays defense (look at Kobe’s ppg last year against the Clips, lowest ppg for Kobe against a WC team). And having Michael Finley four spots ahead of Gordon? He’ll be 37 by season’s end and hasn’t been individually relevant since he was in Dallas. I get it, you love this Spurs team. They look great to me too. But, it’s clouding your judgment.

    - Don’t get me started on Carmelo at #2 while Durant is #7.

    - And Amundson? Really? Yeesh. I guess making the bottom of the list isn’t such a crime, but they did just spend their lottery pick on the position Amundson plays.

    - Oh, and if Miller is Steve Blake’s back up, I’ll eat my hat and your hat, khandor. I like both players a lot actually, but one is going to make a guaranteed $14 million from the Blazers over the next two seasons and one is only guaranteed about $5 million this season. That’s just math.

    And to show that I’m not just out to rag on you khandor, I can tell you that I agree that DBB is foolishly in love with Bynum and super sensitive about anything contrary. Dumars going out and getting Ben Gordon makes it pretty clear that until/unless Rip is dealt, Bynum is pretty much frozen out of ever seeing more than 15 minutes on the court. And I agree that’s a very good thing for the squad. If you look at Bynum’s output last year it looks eerily similar to Walter Herrmann’s rookie year in Charlotte. DBB was geeked about Herrmann too. They’ve kinda figured out now how stupid that obsession looked. Give it time, and they’ll see Bynum for what he really is: inconsequential.

  47. khandor Says:

    krbal,

    1. Welcome aboard! :-)

    2. Hopefully you will check back in this thread and reply to this initial comment which I’m leaving for you.

    Please look closely in the projected Back-up Players Chart and you should be able to see Chris Anderson [i.e. Anderson-C] listed there as No. 2 on my list.

    Once you respond to this fact first, then, I’ll be more than happy to proceed to the other points you’ve raised. :-)

  48. khandor Says:

    krbal,

    Oh, well … while I’m waiting for your reply …

    re: Eric Gordon

    I think he has a bright future in the NBA. He is rated lower on my list because he still has a number of areas that need improvement which go beyond his ability to score the ball.

    re: Finley

    Examples of different aspects of his individual game that makes him a superior match-up player at the #2/OG position compared with Eric Gordan …

    - Old Man Finley has a more developed post-up game
    - Old Man Finley is both taller and physically bigger which makes him a better “Switching Check” at the 1/2/3/4 positions
    - Old Man Finley is a better situational rebounder
    - Old Man Finley is a better “clutch shooter” [not scorer mind you], especially when running off screens and can get his shot off with more ease given his greater height

    IMO, Michael Finley is nowhere near the player he once was … but, on a short term basis, and considering the highly specific complementray role he is destined to play on this year’s Spurs team, i.e. as a Back-up who is only starting to better balance out their 1st and 2nd units … there isn’t another name on that list who deserves to go above his at the #2/OG position, based on what they’ve accomplished in the NBA to-date.

    re: Melo vs Durant

    As I’ve said, within a short period of time, I’d expect Durantula to pass Melo by on this list … which is not to say that I think Melo is a bad #3/SF, but only that KD is really going to be that good. He’s just not there yet … especially on the Rebounding front and his ability to move up and check the #4/PF position when need be, according to specific situations that occur regularly in NBA games.

    re: Amundson

    Hopefully Alvin Gentry/Steve Kerr will decide to use Earl Clark properly and keep him far away from the #4/PF position.

    Earl has superstar capacity, if he’s played on the wing in the NBA.

    Louis, on the other hand, is a terrific complementary “smallish Big” alongside of Amare Stoudemire.

    re: Miller & Blake

    Nate McMillan might just decide that what Portland needs in their starting line-up is the higher percentage 3PT-shooting that Blake provides compared with Andre.

    Conversely, with Miller on the roster now, Nate might be able to remove Brandon Roy earlier in the game and then insert Andre for Blake to run their offense through him, at the PG spot, given his physical strength and ability to control the tempo of the game by taking the ball wherever it needs to be taken in the half-court, to penetrate, and get to the bucket in transition.

    re: Will Bynum & DBB

    Thanks for providing your perspective … which seems to agree, at least, in part, with mine.

    PS. Btw, if you happen to be a regular contributor to the DBB site, it would be a pleasant surprise to find out that not all who dwell there are afflicted with the same mind-set. :-)

  49. khandor Says:

    krbal,

    Suspect moves like this won’t earn Andre Miller any browny points from a coach like Nate McMillan.

  50. krbal Says:

    I failed to realize that the first list is specifically for projected starters (poor Houston if they really do start David Andersen instead of moving Scola over to C), but it doesn’t explain why a dude like Przybilla is 6. I like Przybilla, but it’s hard to argue that he’s better than any of the guys at #s 7-10. They have way more asked of them and they tend to deliver it too.

    Finley can be 7’5″ for all I care, Gordon shut down Kobe Bryant (among others) last year as much as any off guard in the WC could. Height isn’t an advantage for Finley, it’s a completely irrelevant measure. Same with post game. That’s about as important a skill as it is for a center to run an offense from the top of the key. A more developed post game is a terrible support to an argument for putting Finley over Gordon.

    Miller has been around the block. Conditioning aside, 14.6 and 7.4 are his career averages. He gets it done. I don’t care if he can shoot threes or not. Wade never needed a PG who shot threes in order to win some games. I’m not saying Roy is Wade, but they’re similar players, so complementary pieces are similar. I’d say there’s a 20% chance Miller doesn’t start for the Blazers.

    Why is Iverson a starter and Mayo not? Mayo just averaged 18.5 ppg in his rookie season while starting every single game. You don’t demote that. Period. If anything, it’s Conley’s starting spot that’s in the air. I love Conley, strictly as a distributor though. He already came off the bench for a quarter of the season last year. Demoting Conley for AI would lead to Conley (rightfully) pouting but wouldn’t totally kill the locker room. Demoting Mayo would create absolute anarchy.

    And it’s a pet peeve of mine, so I know I’m being nitpicky, but it’s Chris and David AndersEn not AndersOn.

    As for DBB, no reason to say anything to this point. Bynum-love is a big turn off for me because it’s not supported by rational thinking.

  51. khandor Says:

    krbal,

    1. Thanks for pointing out my spelling of Chris and David’s surname. I will correct those errors, asap.

    2. I think there’s a decent chance that Rick Adelman makes the decision to go with Andersen over Scola at Center position, for a fair chunk of the regular season just based on the sheer number of games the Rockets will have to play without both Yao Ming and Dikembe Mutumbo. In a short series, there is little doubt, however, that Scola is the better player/option.

    3. Joel P. is rated 6th on my list primarily because of his ability to Defend & Rebound his position for the Blazers. In conjunction with the fact that he is not an “offensive stiff”, can hit an occasional mid-range jump-shot, is a physically tough player, and is a decent shot-blocker … there simply isn’t any other name on the current Starter’s list in the WC who I would prefer to have on my team, at the present itme.

    4. re: Gordon vs Finley

    Eric is 6-3, 222. Michael is 6-7, 225. Michael’s ability to be cut to the block and play post offense is far superior to Eric’s, at this stage of their respective career’s. Although San Antonio doesn’t use this option a great deal of the time … principally because they have other weapons at their disposal … if E-Gordon was to check him, IMO, Gregg Popovich would not hesitate to go this route with Mr. Finley, as he’s done in the past during specific playoff series with a fair degree of success, which necessitated an immediate double-team from the Spurs’ opponent’s defense.

    Although you, personally, might not value this aspect of Finley’s game, I do not believe that Gregg Popovich concurs with your opinion.

    In addition, I do believe that I listed more features than just that one advantage.

    5. re: Miller and Blake

    - I’m not disputing the offensive numbers that Andre has put up over the years
    - technically, what you happen to care about most, isn’t the question here … i.e. what matters is what Nate McMillan actually cares about. :-)
    - IMO, Nate is the one who values Blake’s ability to shoot the 3-ball at a decent percentage without having to shoot a tonne of them in the first place
    - re: Wade … Jason Williams [37.2%] was in fact a decent 3-ball shooter for the Heat when they won the NBA title in 2005-2006, at least, in comparison with Andre Miller [21.0% for his career]
    - Roy & Wade ar NOT similar players, IMO

    6. re: Iverson vs Mayo as a Starter

    - asking AI to come off the bench in favour of a “still young cat” like Mayo would be taken as a huge sign of disrespect by The Answer and the other players for the Grizzlies
    - if the Grizzlies want their season to turn into a version of the old “Gong Show” then they will try to pull a stunt like that
    - asking Mayo to “take one for the team”, so-to-speak, with his entire career aheqd of him … at this point … is the more sound way to go
    - re: Conley’s spot, IMO, an old-school former player like Lionel Hollins … who teammed successfully in Portland with Dave Twardzik and Johnny Davis, as a set of smallish guards … is more likely to keep Junior where he’s at and give AI free reign to go to work exclusively at the #2/OG whenever the ball happens to be in his hands

    7. re: rational thinking

    Contrary to popular belief … I’m a big supporter of this way of thinking. The question is … what exactly some of the individuals who frequent that specific site actually think qualifies as rational thought. :-)

  52. krbal Says:

    There’s absolutely no way they don’t start OJ Mayo. Absolutely none. That’s not rational thinking. What kind of message does it send when a guy goes all 82, puts up 18.5 a night as a rookie and then gets demoted for an aging “superstar”? Try selling that environment as a worthwhile destination to any player in this league, let alone the young ones (who their team is filled with). You simply can’t. The runner-up for the rookie of the year does not come off the bench in his second season. You’d basically be hanging a sign on the door that says “Might as well force a trade or hold out if we draft you”. Memphis management is stupid, but not that stupid.

  53. khandor Says:

    krbal,

    Here is further food for thought about this subject …

    Worst year of Iverson’s career

    IMO, Chris Wallace and Lionel Hollins are not about to ask The Answer to come off the bench for a franchise like the Grizzlies.

    In the end, however, I know that I am not going to be able to change your mind about this and we will just need to agree to disagree, until time itself proves which of our perspectives is closer to the actual truth of the matter.

  54. khandor Says:

    krbal,

    re: Miller vs Blake

    FYI … Miller searching for right fit in Portland

  55. krbal Says:

    Saw that the other day. Miller had the same thoughts I did, as he should have. The fact that Blake got the first two preseason starts ahead of him is somewhat insulting. And I’m a fan of Nate McMillan, but the conditioning bit from McMillan is a joke. The guy is an all-time NBA ironman, and his numbers aren’t in decline with a game that isn’t about athleticism anyway so it ages well (see: Fisher, Derek; Horry, Robert). He’s an assist machine. This should be his job to lose, not his job to win.

  56. khandor Says:

    For the benefit of those who seem not to understand the ranking of Kevin Durant in the charts above …

    Memo to a Young Baller

  57. khandor Says:

    krbal,

    When you get a chance it might be good idea for you to let a certain “Mike Payne” and “dandresden” and “shinons”, etc., know that you are, in fact, not me [i.e. khandor] and someone who I have just “made up” here on my blog to support my perspective on the contributions of one Will Bynum.

    It can be hilarious [and sad] to see the lengths to which some folks will go in an effort to try and discredit the viewpoints of others who may not share the same opinions as they do.

  58. joeldavid Says:

    khandor and krbal,
    just wondering if you have been watching the play of will bynum in the last ten games or so and if you still think he is not worth having in a 4 guard rotation? seems like he is bringing the goods in games i have seen.

  59. khandor Says:

    joel,

    What I’ve said before about Will Bynum vs the combination of Rodney Stuckey, Richard Hamilton and Ben Gordon still stands … and, does not mean that I think the Pistons’ GTi is a poor/low quality NBA player/PG.

    At present, Detroit is 5-5/.500.

    IMO, if the Pistons were to sit Will B. down and go with a 3-guard rotation, almost exclusively, at the #1/Point Guard and #2/Off Guard positions this season … with Tay Prince as their primary #3/SF, and giving more PT to Jerebko and Daye [and Washington?, who they cut from their present roster :-( ] … Detroit will eventually be able to re-establish their team as one of the Top Dogs in EC … as opposed to just being a mediocre .500 [or below] level outfit.

    If Detroit gives copious amounts of PT this season to Will B.:

    * Rodney Stuckey will NOT make the same amount of progress he could otherwise make as the main-frame Point Guard of their team;

    * Ben Gordon will NOT make the same amount of progress he could otherwise make as the LEADING SCORER OFF THE BENCH for their team, at the guard position;

    * Richard Hamilton will NOT make the same amount of progress he could otherwise make as the LEADER of their team;

    which are ALL things that will need to happen for Detroit to regain their former cat-bird perch in the EC.

    In the NBA game, Will Bynum is a very solid “smallish” Point Guard.

    However, very solid “smallish” PG’s should NOT supplant a player with the capacity for excellence that Rodney Stuckey has, now and down-the-road.

    i.e. Rodney Stuckey … like Chauncey Billups before him … is actually the type of PG that an elite level team is capable of winning a NBA championship with, as its main-frame starter; Will Bynum is NOT.

    Will Bynum is actually the type of “good surplus” player that an up-and-coming team SHOULD look to trade, in order to fill the other needs in its current line-up, e.g. at the PF or C position.

    A team in the position of Detroit benefits tremendously from having only 2 Point Guards:

    i. The main-frame.

    and,

    ii. His primary back-up.

    … in terms of role definition and cohesiveness.

  60. khandor Says:

    joel,

    I’m pretty sure you’ve seen this article already …

    Could Will Bynum become the Detroit Pistons’ franchise player?

    The Pistons’ current W-L Record is now 5-7/.417, tied for 10th place in the EC with the Raptors.

    From my perspective, those performance numbers for their team aren’t likely to change all that much, as this season progresses, as long as John Kuester continues down the current path he’s on with Misters Bynum, Stuckey and Gordon.