YOU MAKE THE CALL: Available Roster Options for the Raptors, 2009-2010

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Which of the following two "Roster Options" do you believe would have reaped the better long term results for the Raptors franchise?

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RAPTORS ROSTER OPTIONS 2009-2010

 

 

OPTION 1

SALARY

PER

OPTION 2

SALARY

PER

1

Calderon

8.2

18.80

Calderon

8.2

18.80

2

DeRozan

2.3

?

Parker *

2.6

12.16

3

Turkoglu

9.0

14.82

Moon $

3.0

13.35

4

Bosh

15.8

22.19

Evans ^

5.0

10.42

5

Bargnani

6.5

14.66

Bosh

15.8

22.19

 

6

Jack

5.0

13.10

Jack $

5.0

13.10

7

Belinelli

1.5

11.86

DeRozan #2

2.3

?

8

Wright

1.8

8.63

Graham *

@  2.4

11.99

9

Evans

5.0

10.42

Johnson <

3.9

13.57

10

Nesterovic

2.0

14.15

Bargnani

6.5

14.66

 

11

Douby

0.9

10.26

Douby

0.9

10.26

12

Johnson

3.9

13.57

Nesterovic >

2.0

14.15

 

13

Banks

4.5

7.83

Carney !

1.7

12.16

14

Weems

0.7

-3.85

CDR #1

0.7

12.22

15

O’Bryant

0.9

11.65

Humphries

2.9

16.37

TOTAL

58.0

167.59

TOTAL

63.1

194.83

Legend:

* – Re-signed own UFA; #1 – 2008 First Round Draft Pick; #2 – 2009 First Round Draft Pick [No. 9]; ! – Acquired via trade for TJ Ford; ^ – Acquired via trade for Kapono; < – Acquired via trade for Ukic & Delfino; $ – Signed as RFA; > – Signed as UFA; @ – 2008-2009 salary.

 

OPTION 1 is the Raptors current roster.

OPTION 2 is the roster which the team could/should have today … if it would have followed the advice of yours truly, and a GM like Joe Dumars, who has already won 3 NBA Championships …

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JD: When we had cap space maybe eight years ago, we made a decision then – there was a question back then about going out and trying to sign one big name with that money. We made a decision back then that we wanted to come out of that free agency with multiple players. We made the same decision this year – we’re not going to go out and sign one max player and then tout that we’ve had a great off-season. As we entered the summer, we were not one max player away from being a contender, so it made no sense to go out and target one guy. We wanted to come out of this free agency with a minimum of three guys and we’ve done that with Wilcox, with Villanueva, with Ben Gordon, and to be in a position financially to also sign a veteran big like we wanted to, to also have Ben Wallace, as well. To come out of it with three or four players, that’s what we wanted to do in the first place. We believe talent in numbers wins. That’s what we’re going to continue to try to do.
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… during the last 15 months, regarding:

* The trade for Jermaine O’Neal & Nathan Jawai last summer … i.e. DON’T DO IT;

* The trade for Shawn Marion & Marcus Banks this past season … i.e. DON’T DO IT; and,

* The sign & trade for Hedo Turkoglu, Antoine Wright & Devean George this summer … i.e. DON’T DO IT;

in conjunction with:

* The proposed trade of TJ Ford last summer [i.e. acquiring Rodney Carney]; 

* The selection of Chris Douglas-Roberts [No. 17, overall] in the 2008 NBA Draft … which would have precluded the signing of Will Solomon;

and, certain other personnel moves which actually have been made during this same time period that were NOT disastrous, according to this corner, including:

* The trade for a future 2nd Round draft pick last season … which got rid of Hassan Adams; 

* The signing of Quincy Douby last season;

* The trade for Reggie Evans this summer … which got rid of Jason Kapono;

* The selection of DeMar DeRozan [No. 9, overall] in the 2009 NBA Draft Pick;

* The signing of Jarrett Jack [i.e. as an UFA] this summer;

* The signing of Rasho Nesterovic [i.e. as an UFA] this summer; and,

* The trade for Amir Johnson … which got rid of Roko Ukic & Carlos Delfino.

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The major problem with the Raptors has not been a dirth of solid secondary personnel moves but, rather, the team’s repeated attempts to SPEED UP the development process, by making BIG “Swing For Fences” MOVES … seemingly without a comprehensive, well-coordinated, long term plan Plan Of Attack … in an effort to become a contending team TOO SOON, which inevitably result in self-inflicted wounds, that retard legitimate progress and waste the opportunities at-hand for gradual, sustained growth into one of the best franchises in the NBA.

 

PS. When you compare these two rosters there should be NO DOUBT, whatsoever, as to which one has the greater number of high calibre, athletic, young players that could have formed the basis of a quality team in Toronto for the next decade.   

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39 Responses to “YOU MAKE THE CALL: Available Roster Options for the Raptors, 2009-2010”

  1. MC_B-rad Says:

    u sir are a d*****bag….and i shouldnt have complimented you with “sir”

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    Edit: If a remark like that is the best you can do, in terms of leaving an intelligent comment here, then, unfortunately for you, it will be your last. The choice is yours to make.
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  2. pfgtre Says:

    Do you think that the Pistons (a team managed by JD) are going to be better than the Raptors this year, and for the near future?

  3. MC_B-rad Says:

    in fact, you make Stephan A. Smith look like he knows what hes talking about…seriously, every single thing you have to say about the Raptors makes you look more and more ridiculous….you should apply to ESPN…I hear they have an opening

  4. khandor Says:

    MCBR,

    It’s interesting that certain other highly experienced [e.g. Scott G.] and intelligent people in the Raptors on-line community [e.g. Michael Grange, Dave, Flux, Raps Fan, Mike D, etc.], seem not to agree with your perception about me and what I happen to write about the Raptors. :-)

  5. MC_B-rad Says:

    I guess just as equally interesting is that there are a number of “highly experienced people” that seem to think you are ridiculously far-fetched in your ideas about the raptors. I am sure if I went back in the archives of the net community blogs, i could find many examples, I just dont have the time or interest in proving this.

    I will give you this, your ridiculousness piques my interest to see what you have to say, but I am always disappointed by your obvious disdain for the franchise you claim to be part of the fan hood.

    We have had this discussion before and I know what your arguments are; I just find it interesting that you seem to be articulate and somewhat intelligent in your arguments….when they have nothing to do with the raps….but when it comes to the raps you do nothing but slam them and make ridiculously outlandish comments/assessments like you did with this article, and the wings article you did the other day.

    As stated above, I am sure ESPN would love you to come aboard; your baseless, and completely biased, attacks on the Raps franchise as well as your opinions based on nothing more than your current mood would fit right in there.

  6. khandor Says:

    pfgtre,

    Welcome aboard! :-)

    re: Joe D & the Pistons, this season and beyond

    1. There is every reason to believe that Detroit will be in the thick of a very tight race for the #4-8 playoff spots in the EC this season.

    Unlike many Raptors fans and other NBA observers, I am not someone who would blithely disregard what the Pistons have accomplished for the last 8 seasons, considering:

    - who Joe D. is, and his track record in the NBA
    - the presence of Rip and Prince and Stuckey and Bynum, in their back-court
    - the acquisition of Gordon and Villanueva and Wilcox and this summer
    - the re-acquisition of Wallace
    - the additions of Deron Washington [2008/2nd Rd], Austin Daye [2009/1st Rd], DaJuan Summers [2009/2nd Rd] and Jonas Jerebko [2009/2nd Rd]this summer
    - the presence of veterans like Jason Maxiell & Kwame Brown, in their front-court [who were kept OVER Amir Johnson]

    and expect them to miss the playoffs this year.

    2. If I had to pick between the Raptors and Pistons, re: which one is going to finish higher in the EC standings this season … at-present … I would select Detroit. :-(

    3. If I had to pick between the Raptors and Pistons, re: which one is going to be a more successful franchise in the EC over the next decade … at-present … I would also pick Detroit. :-(

  7. yertu damkule Says:

    i guess all we need now is to step into your alternate reality machine so we can actually see some hard evidence to support your assertions. you’re assuming that the moves made have been incorrect, and that those moves you’ve asserted should have been made would have produced different results. maybe. maybe not. WE. WILL. NEVER. KNOW. as silly as it is to look into the past & DECLARE that ‘things would have been better’ had they done ‘Y’ as opposed to ‘X,’ it’s even sillier to compare current situations that are simply not comparable. moon & AP aren’t on the roster, so determing that this roster ‘would be’ better than the one we have is simply undeterminable. it serves no purpose, other than to once again point out that there really are no moves that current management has made that you’re in agreement…or if there are, we certainly never hear about them. well done. it’s your MO, at least you stick with it regardless of the situation, whether it’s with respect to individual players being ‘used’ incorrectly (hump, joey, moon, AP), or the construction of the team in general.

  8. yertu damkule Says:

    what are your thoughts on rip’s contract?

  9. khandor Says:

    MCBR,

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    re: “I guess just as equally interesting is that there are a number of “highly experienced people” that seem to think you are ridiculously far-fetched in your ideas about the raptors.”
    ——————————————————–

    Like who for example?

    ——————————————————–
    re: “We have had this discussion before and I know what your arguments are; I just find it interesting that you seem to be articulate and somewhat intelligent in your arguments….when they have nothing to do with the raps….but when it comes to the raps you do nothing but slam them and make ridiculously outlandish comments/assessments like you did with this article, and the wings article you did the other day.”
    ——————————————————–

    If you truly have ability to see those things clearly when I write about other teams … and sports, in general … but not when you try your best to evaluate what I’m saying about the Raptors, then, perhaps, it’s your perception of your favourite team that really NEEDS to be re-assessed rather than my professional evaluation of the Raptors … an organization that just happens to be my favourite team in the NBA.

  10. rob Says:

    cant believe u dont run your own team…… cant wait for u k, to eat all your negative sentiments re the raps. enjoy your stats, just the appetizer. i am hoping raps republic stops including u as a link. u r a constant irritant…

  11. khandor Says:

    yertu,

    1. If you read this blog entry and still think that there are NO personnel moves made by the Raptors which I think are solid then this misperception is plainly yours.

    I sincerely suggest that you re-read what I’ve written here, e.g. re: acquiring Evans, re-signing Nesterovic, acquiring Johnson, acquiring Jack, selecting DeRozan, etc.

    2. Players like Moon & Parker & Nesterovic & Humphries have been on the roster and it isn’t the subject of anyone’s “imagination” to think that they could all have been retained for this coming season, in one way or another, while the acquisitions of Carney, CDR, Evans, DeRozan, Jack, and Johnson have all been very doable during the last 15 months.

    In fact, given the moves that Bryan Colangelo HAS BEEN ABLE TO MAKE it is entirely conceivable that the team associated with OPTION 2, in this instance, could well have taken the floor for the Raptors this coming October.

    ——————————-

    What about Rip’s contract would you like me to comment upon?

  12. Marcello Says:

    I can’t help noticing that pretty much all of the PER difference between the two options lies in the bottom three players, thus it’s not a real difference. That said, it wouldn’t be REAL anyway in my opinion, because we are talking about a statistic measure that doesn’t take into account defence and the system in which the player actually plays, so that we could see a considerable bump in a player’s stats depending on the schemes, the role of said player on a team and even the chemistry between him and the rest of the team. I think that we just have to wait and see what this team will do on the court, because that’s where the game really is. Even though I respect and appreciate the help that modern stats bring to the analisys of basketball, I see more and more people relying too much on them, sometimes to the point that the strenght of a team is judged just by numbers on papers and we forget that it’s a game played by human beings and a good chunk of what makes a team succesfull is not measurable with calculations, however accurate and elaborated they may be. Let’s just stop all this blog driven hindsight and wannabe GM thinking that’s spreading everywhere and enjoy this game with the tools that we actually own: our eyes, our minds and our passion, and leave all this statistical speculations to the Hollingers and Berris of the world, who have far better instruments and data archives to actually make well studied and pondered arguments.
    This is not intended in any way as a personal attack to you or anybody else, even if I have almost never agreed with you I still respect your personal opinions and come here on your blog every now and then to read what you have to say. One last thing: it seems to me that you have quite a few haters, and I think it’s probably due to the fact that you tend to present your opinions like undisputable truths, which is something that usually irritates other people, so if you want other fans to listen to your thoughts (which I’m sure you do, otherwise you wouldn’t have this blog) you should probably try to sound a little less presumptuous.

    (Sorry about the lenght, next time I reply I’ll try to keep it shorter)

  13. Spyder Says:

    Wow – look at these responses!

    Ok first of all, I was with ya until the NO DOUBT comment. You have some great points (swinging for the fences, speeding up a natural process, signing a few players as opposed to a MAX contract player) and I like what you’ve tried to compare here, but once you go back and look at the two rosters there’s a lot more to it than saying one is just plain old better than the other….

    - BC has put us in a much better position to handle the loss of Bosh. If this happens of course (which is expected at a 95% rate according to the writers at ESPN).

    - Hedo, although way overpriced/valued is a bit of a gamble, but he’s also a sure thing. We can now be sure that we’ll have him, calderon and bargs for the long term, and that’s saying a lot. Toronto has not been the destination of choice for the majority of big name players so obviously having these 3 and possibly Derozan/Bosh in the mix makes us a pretty decent team (touching only on the starting 5 of course)

    If Bosh does leave, we can actually fill that hole now and that my friends is most important! You never want all your eggs in one basket (Bosh).

    - Looking at your option 2… you have bosh playing center and bargs on the bench. Not gonna happen. We’re committed to developing bargs now that he’s got the big money and I don’t see bosh enjoying the “center” tag again. Sure Evans would still do most of the heavy lifting but Bargs is a starter by all means.

    All in all, good attempt to compare two options. You’ve brought up some points worth considering, but I think you missed the mark. Goodluck with the posts!

    …oh and I love the immature name calling seen above. Makes people look really intelligent! ;)

  14. DanH Says:

    Interesting alternatives…

    The thing about Detroit’s latest moves is… I was very impressed with the structure of that team over the past few years. The focus on team play and defense was, to me, an inspiration to other teams. The team seemed to exemplify the word ‘winner,’ even if they did only win the one championship.

    Now, with their off-season moves, they seem to be shifting the focus of their team away from defense and team play by signing two players that have been suspect on defense (to say the least) and tend to play 1-on-1 more than a team game. Hey, I’m no GM, and maybe they will be more balanced and successful this year. I guess its just my vision of what made them a good team draining away.

    As for the Raps, I’ll come right out and say that I’m with the expected majority (when don’t your polls generate this kind of response?) in that I would certainly prefer the current lineup. I do find it interesting to see how easily we could have gone in another direction. However, it seems to me that after the disappointing 07-08 season, changes had to be made. I think BC saw that the team was sliding.

    The Jermaine O’Neal trade was a swing for the fences move, I’ll give you that. But the risk was one season only, especially with the Marion trade.

    One thing that should be brought up – the only reason the Raps were able to draft DeRozan was because of the failure of the JO trade. It seems erroneous to include him on both sides of the chart, as the Raps would have had to settle for a different player in the draft.

  15. FAQ Says:

    Last season’s roster was stale and stinky … a complete rebuild was necessary and that’s what BC did … for better or worse. The other problem is Bosh and his probable decision to jump to the USA sooner or later. BC has created a roster that only needs a couple of top players which he intends to get in a trade for Bosh.

    The completed rebuilt Raptor team will take 2 more seasons before it is a strong contender. BC has locked down the core players with longer contracts … Bargs, Jose, Hedo, Jack, DeDe. All you need speculate now is which two good players a trade with Bosh will get for us.

    If Bosh stays, it will not be for a max contract … because he can be easily replaced with two good players which will do more good for the team than Bosh.

  16. Tinman Says:

    “It’s interesting that certain other highly experienced [e.g. Scott G.] and intelligent people in the Raptors on-line community [e.g. Michael Grange, Dave, Flux, Raps Fan, Mike D, etc.], seem not to agree with your perception about me and what I happen to write about the Raptors. ”

    Khandor – your not name dropping RU? While Grange does have a column, doesn’t make him an expert.

    Will the Pistons finish ahead of the Raptors this season?

  17. khandor Says:

    rob,

    re: a constant irritant

    The choice to click on different links at RR is yours, no one else’s. Perhaps you need to take more responsibility for your own actions in that regard.

  18. MC_B-rad Says:

    As for who I think supports my perception/view of your writings, I think we need look no further than the comments above me for at least 3 examples.

    As for your second point; what exactly makes you a professional? Just because one has a blog site in which they are allowed to spew off garbage free of censor (while still controlling what others say), doesnt make them professional…in any way.

  19. MC_B-rad Says:

    MArcello,

    According to previous comments, Khandor doesnt want other fans to listen to his thoughts….thats not why he has this blog….he never explained why in fact he DOES have this blog, but its not so other people can read or listen to his thoughts.

  20. khandor Says:

    Marcello,

    Welcome aboard! :-)

    ——————————————————–
    re: “I can’t help noticing that pretty much all of the PER difference between the two options lies in the bottom three players, thus it’s not a real difference.”
    ——————————————————–

    That’s a very interesting observation you just made.

    I disagree with you, however, that it’s not a “real difference”.

    ——————————————————–
    re: “That said, it wouldn’t be REAL anyway in my opinion, because we are talking about a statistic measure that doesn’t take into account defence and the system in which the player actually plays, so that we could see a considerable bump in a player’s stats depending on the schemes, the role of said player on a team and even the chemistry between him and the rest of the team.”
    ——————————————————–

    Others are free to use whatever metric they would like, including defensive stats, or including no stats at all, and straight-up Basketball Acumen.

    When you evaluate the strengths & weaknesses of these two Roster Options for the Raptors … Is it really cut & dried that the 2009-2010 version is automatically going to prove to be BETTER than Option 2, which has been proposed here?

    In my book … it sure doesn’t look that way, any way whoever might want to slice it.

    ——————————————————–
    re: “I think that we just have to wait and see what this team will do on the court, because that’s where the game really is. Even though I respect and appreciate the help that modern stats bring to the analisys of basketball, I see more and more people relying too much on them, sometimes to the point that the strenght of a team is judged just by numbers on papers and we forget that it’s a game played by human beings and a good chunk of what makes a team succesfull is not measurable with calculations, however accurate and elaborated they may be. Let’s just stop all this blog driven hindsight and wannabe GM thinking that’s spreading everywhere and enjoy this game with the tools that we actually own: our eyes, our minds and our passion, and leave all this statistical speculations to the Hollingers and Berris of the world, who have far better instruments and data archives to actually make well studied and pondered arguments.”
    ——————————————————–

    In general, I am someone who uses Basketball Acumen to make observations about the game, and will look at specific possessions within the context of a game to understand what really went on in those specific circumstances, without relying seasonal game stat averages and the like.

    As such … an accurate description of what I have to say about the game would run opposite to the belief which says,

    “Basketball is a game/sport that can be best understood by number-crunching statisticians”

    … rather than an approach which combines the insight of someone who has played and/or coached it at a fairly high level, has been highly trained to see with accuracy how the game actually works at an elite level, and who is open-minded enough – as well as being learned and educated enough … to appreciate and incorporate the use of valid statistics to form his/her opinions about the game.

    ——————————————————–
    re: “This is not intended in any way as a personal attack to you or anybody else, even if I have almost never agreed with you I still respect your personal opinions and come here on your blog every now and then to read what you have to say.”
    ——————————————————–

    Not to worry.

    I have not taken what you’ve had to say here as a personal attack on me.

    ——————————————————–
    re: “One last thing: it seems to me that you have quite a few haters, and I think it’s probably due to the fact that you tend to present your opinions like undisputable truths, which is something that usually irritates other people, so if you want other fans to listen to your thoughts (which I’m sure you do, otherwise you wouldn’t have this blog) you should probably try to sound a little less presumptuous.”
    ——————————————————–

    Constructive feedback is always welcome.

    In this instance … if you can, please point out something specific about which I’ve been presumptuous in this blog entry?

    ——————————————————–
    re: “(Sorry about the lenght, next time I reply I’ll try to keep it shorter)”
    ——————————————————–

    There’s no need to apologize for this … in this corner, at least … since it’s the quality of something which is the most important rather than its quantity. :-)

  21. Brain Colangelo Says:

    All of the PER value is in players 13-15. New Raps who will plau are better than shoulda/woulda Raps.

  22. Big Smoke Gary Says:

    My real issue with this (understanding your trying to start conversations) is hind sight is 20/20. I’ll take Colangelo and his decisions over yours any day.
    It’s not as easy to make moves when you pay cheque and reputation depends on it, but it is easy to say what you would have done after things have gone astray. The trick to being a good GM is building an overall strategy that you stick too, but knowing how to change your tactics when it’s called for.
    Anyone can be a Monday Morning Quarterback.

  23. khandor Says:

    DanH,

    ——————————————————–
    re: “Interesting alternatives…

    The thing about Detroit’s latest moves is… I was very impressed with the structure of that team over the past few years. The focus on team play and defense was, to me, an inspiration to other teams. The team seemed to exemplify the word ‘winner,’ even if they did only win the one championship.

    Now, with their off-season moves, they seem to be shifting the focus of their team away from defense and team play by signing two players that have been suspect on defense (to say the least) and tend to play 1-on-1 more than a team game. Hey, I’m no GM, and maybe they will be more balanced and successful this year. I guess its just my vision of what made them a good team draining away.”
    ——————————————————–

    When I look at the Pistons’ roster I don’t see a team that has moved very far away from the essential character and preferred style of play Joe D.

    When a team like Detroit has a great deal of difficulty generating enough points scored to win games against other top notch teams, in the playoffs, it makes at least some semblance of sense to go out and add players to your roster thought to be able to make shots, on a consistent basis, in particular, late in the game and/or as the shot clock is ticking down.

    Unlike others, perhaps …

    What I see when I look at the Pistons is considerably more than just Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva, as one-way additions for this season, including:

    [new adds]

    - Deron Washington … D + R, at SF-OG
    - Austin Daye … O, at SF-OG
    - DaJuan Summers … D + R, at SF-PF-OG
    - Jonas Jerebko … O + D + R, at SF-PF-OG
    - Chris Wilcox … D + R + O, at PF-C

    [hold-overs]

    - Rip … O + D + R, at OG-SF
    - Prince … D + R + O, at SF-PG-PF
    - Stuckey … O + D + R, at PG-OG
    - Bynum … D + O, at PG
    - Maxiell … D + R, at PF
    - Wallace … D + R, at PF-C
    - Brown … D + R, at C

    In my book, there’s quite of bit of solid Defense & Rebounding on their team already … if players like Gordon and Villanueva can provide a scoring boost.

    ——————————————————–
    re: “As for the Raps, I’ll come right out and say that I’m with the expected majority (when don’t your polls generate this kind of response?) in that I would certainly prefer the current lineup.”
    ——————————————————–

    Unfortunately, most on-line polls which involve the Raptors seem to be skewed by the participation of the team’s rather biased fanbase.

    What’s a true shame for the team, however, is that the results of these polls also tend to run in the opposite direction of the actual performance of the Raptors.

    ——————————————————–
    re: “I do find it interesting to see how easily we could have gone in another direction.”
    ——————————————————–

    I, too, found this to be very interesting when I first began to look at it.

    Unlike other NBA observers and regular Raptors fans … the position which I have toward this team isn’t at either end of this continuum:

    1/The Raptors Have Terrific Talent … 2/Middle Left … 3/Center … 4/Middle Right … 5/The Raptors Talent Level Sucks

    despite what some in Raptorville might think …

    but is a more multi-layered perspective that sees its strengths and weaknesses with acuity … i.e. for what they really are, and are not, in comparison with the other teams in the NBA … and, is best described as being someplace in the shifting middle ground, represented by #2-3-4 on that continuum.

    From my POV, there has been plenty of talent on the Raptors teams during the last several seasons, which has either been mis-matched or mis-used, by the owners, GM and coaches, some of which should not have been on the team in the first place, in favour of specific other options that were available, as well … if the real goal for this team is to eventually win the NBA championship, sometime in the not-too-distant future.

    ——————————————————–
    re: “However, it seems to me that after the disappointing 07-08 season, changes had to be made. I think BC saw that the team was sliding.

    The Jermaine O’Neal trade was a swing for the fences move, I’ll give you that. But the risk was one season only, especially with the Marion trade.

    One thing that should be brought up – the only reason the Raps were able to draft DeRozan was because of the failure of the JO trade. It seems erroneous to include him on both sides of the chart, as the Raps would have had to settle for a different player in the draft.”
    ——————————————————–

    The O’Neal trade was the wrong move at the wrong time.

    TJ Ford SHOULD have been traded but NOT for Jermaine O’Neal.

    When the team got off to a 8-9 start this past season, firing Sam Mitchell was NOT the right thing to do.

    When Sam Mitchell was eventually fired the right thing to do was NOT the hiring of Jay Triano.

    When last season began to slip away the right thing to do was NOT the trading of O’Neal & Moon for Marion & Banks.

    When Marion refused to re-up with the Raptors this summer the right thing to do was NOT the sign & trade with Dallas & Orlando & Memphis.

    These are all positions which I took prior to these events happening … and moves which have each stopped the team from making gradual sustained progress in the EC over the last 15 months.

    DeRozan is someone who might well have been available to the Raptors even if they finished last season with a better W-L record, either:

    * With the team’s original draft pick; or,
    * With the benefit of a draft day trade.

    If not DeRozan, per se, you could substitute the names Earl Clark, or Terrence Williams, or Gerald Henderson, or Derrick Brown, etc., in his place instead.

  24. khandor Says:

    FAQ,

    ——————————————————–
    re: “Last season’s roster was stale and stinky … a complete rebuild was necessary and that’s what BC did … for better or worse.”
    ——————————————————–

    As I’ve said before … the perception that last year’s roster was “stale and stinky” is not something with which I agree, when looking at the following collection of players:

    1 Calderon
    2 Ukic
    3 Parker
    4 Delfino
    5 Kapono
    6 Moon
    7 Graham
    8 Humphries
    9 Bargnani
    10 O’Neal
    11 Bosh

    A dirth of NBA talent isn’t what killed last year’s team … and, it’s a gross mistake to think that it did.

    ——————————————————–
    re: “The other problem is Bosh and his probable decision to jump to the USA sooner or later. BC has created a roster that only needs a couple of top players which he intends to get in a trade for Bosh.

    The completed rebuilt Raptor team will take 2 more seasons before it is a strong contender. BC has locked down the core players with longer contracts … Bargs, Jose, Hedo, Jack, DeDe. All you need speculate now is which two good players a trade with Bosh will get for us.

    If Bosh stays, it will not be for a max contract … because he can be easily replaced with two good players which will do more good for the team than Bosh.”
    ——————————————————–

    If you look at Roster Option 2 … AND … then … remove the name of Chris Bosh … and put $16.0 M in that slot … going forward beyond next summer … Roster Option 2 still looks very inviting, in comparison with Roster Option 1. :-)

  25. khandor Says:

    Tinman,

    ——————————————————–
    “It’s interesting that certain other highly experienced [e.g. Scott G.] and intelligent people in the Raptors on-line community [e.g. Michael Grange, Dave, Flux, Raps Fan, Mike D, etc.], seem not to agree with your perception about me and what I happen to write about the Raptors. ”

    Khandor – your not name dropping RU?”
    ——————————————————–

    Name-dropping?

    LOL :-)

    The fact is … Michael Grange is an experienced basketball player who, at least, played in the CIS, and is an intelligent person, who has provided a reference to my blog in the basketball column/blog he writes for the Globe & Mail, and with whom I correspond [i.e. I email him AND he emails me in return :-) ] directly.

    If you’d like to think of him as being either an inexperienced basketball person or unintelligent, then, I suppose, that remains your perogative.

    ——————————————————–
    re:“While Grange does have a column, doesn’t make him an expert.”
    ——————————————————–

    FWIW, Imade no mention of whether I think Michael Grange qualifies as a basketball “expert”, one way or the other.

    Michael Grange is someone who I respect a great deal, who happens to do good work for the G & M, and presents his ideas about the game of basketball in a way that I think is terrific for its continued growth & development in Canada.

    ——————————————————–
    re: “Will the Pistons finish ahead of the Raptors this season?”
    ——————————————————–

    At this point, there’s a good chance that they might … and, if I had to choose between one or the other, exclusively, I would bet on the Pistons to accomplish this task rather than the Raptors.

  26. khandor Says:

    MCBR,

    ——————————————————–
    re: “As for who I think supports my perception/view of your writings, I think we need look no further than the comments above me for at least 3 examples.”
    ——————————————————–

    At least 3 examples of what?

    Given what these individuals have written here and elsewhere … What level of “experience in the game” do you think they have?

    ——————————————————–
    re: “As for your second point; what exactly makes you a professional? Just because one has a blog site in which they are allowed to spew off garbage free of censor (while still controlling what others say), doesnt make them professional…in any way.”
    ——————————————————–

    What do you think would put someone in position to qualify as being described accurately as a “professional”, when it comes to expressing their thoughts/observations/opinins/etc. about the game of basketball, and/or sports, in general?

  27. khandor Says:

    MCBR,

    ——————————————————–
    re: “MArcello,

    According to previous comments, Khandor doesnt want other fans to listen to his thoughts….thats not why he has this blog….he never explained why in fact he DOES have this blog, but its not so other people can read or listen to his thoughts.”
    ——————————————————–

    Actually … what you’ve said there does NOT represent accurately what I’ve had to say about this subject when I’ve been asked about it by others in the past.

    e.g. There’s a difference between being asked if you:

    A. Would like others to read your blog

    or,

    B. Would like others to agree more with my opinions, and, therefore, visit your blog more frequently.

    Not sure though if you see the difference.

  28. khandor Says:

    BSG,

    Monday morning quarter-backing isn’t what I happen to do.

    If you read my blog … you should be able to see where it is that I’ve said, in advance, what I think the Raptors should have done before they have made specific moves, rather than just after the fact.

    If I had not, in fact, said at the time: “DON’T DO IT! … it will only make it worse in the long run, if the goal is actually winning a NBA Championship, in the not too-distant future,” then, I probably wouldn’t have taken the time to put this chart together in the first place. :-)

  29. Big Smoke Gary Says:

    Semantics, because when you say “Don’t Do It” and the GM “Does Do It” there is know way to prove if you were right or wrong.
    This is the issue with people who try to use individual statistics to prove outcomes in a team sport.
    I have no issue with blogging your opinion but when you say you’re right and others are wrong, where’s the proof?

  30. malefax Says:

    I prefer option 1. The PER comparison is meaningless because it doesn’t take into account available minutes. Roster 2 is terrible at shooting guard and small forward, which was what sunk us last year, and has too many power forwards competing for minutes. Roster 1 is above average at 4 positions and has potential to develop internally at SG.

  31. khandor Says:

    BSG,

    Part A

    Semantics? Proof in statistical categories?

    When it comes to basketball, or sports, in general … it doesn’t quite work that way.

    If I say, “DON’T DO IT!” and the team responds by having a terrific season, achieving at or beyond its actual level of talent, making the playoffs and advancing a round or two, or winning the championship … then, my opinion – and, for that matter, anyone else, as well, who might have said, “Don’t Do it,” publicly, for their own reasons – will have been proven to be wrong, according to one of the few game stats with any valid meaning whatsoever … i.e. the team’s W-L record in the regular AND how far it goes in the post-season.

    Conversely, however … if the team actually performs in the opposite way, with the opposite results and on-court achievements, then, what “time” will have done is provide the necessary proof that my opinions – as well as those others who also may have said, “DON’T DO IT,” for their own reasons – which I gave in advance, were in fact correct.

    The Raptors finished in 13th place last season, were 4th in the Atlantic Division, and failed to make the playoffs … in a season where the ownership, general manager, and majority of the team’s fanbase actually thought that the the Dinos had turned the corner – after last summer’s Big Move for O’Neal – and were “going to field the best team yet, on paper,” during the Bryan Colangelo era.

    Nuff said.

    ————————————————-

    Part B

    Here’s an observation for someone like you to think about.

    If the Raptors ever do make the series of personnel moves that are required to take a team to the top of the EC standings, the place in the blogosphere where you are probably going to read about it first is right here, on ksb.

    Hopefully, we won’t have to wait another 15 years before that can happen.

  32. khandor Says:

    malefax,

    1. As long as the PER doesn’t take into consideration the available minutes for both Option 1 and Option 2, then, logically, it should still qualify as a valid means of evaluation concerning these two specific groups of 15 players.

    2. The Raptors did not get killed last season because of the way that Parker, Moon and Graham performed at the OG position.

    3. What criteria are you using to classify the performance of Parker, Moon, Graham, DeRozan, Douby, Carney and CDR as “poor”, at the OG & SF positions?

    4. I only see 3 PF’s on Roster Option 2.

    5. At what four positions do you see Roster Option 1 being “above average”? … and, according to what measure/criteria?

    Look forward to reading your response.

  33. gmc765 Says:

    It should be disastrous not disasterous, ok.

  34. khandor Says:

    gmc765,

    Welcome aboard! :-)

    Thanks for the spelling correction.

  35. malefax Says:

    1. I don’t understand what you are trying to say here. My point is that just adding up the PER’s doesn’t take into account that players play varying minutes. If a roster has some higher PER guys who will only see 8 minutes a game, it is unrealistic to just add their PER to the total. To give a real account of a player’s contribution, PER has to be adjusted for expected minutes played.

    2. This is true only insofar as Kapono also contributed to the Raptors getting killed at the wings, so it wasn’t all the fault of the aforementioned 3. Basically, Parker and moon are sub-par starters, and Graham is a third stringer who got second string minutes, which was very damaging. So yes, I put a lot of the blame for the Raptors failures on the shoulders of Graham, and to a lesser extent Parker and Moon. Bargnani (in the first half of the season especially) Roko, and Will Solomon also get blame, but the wings were a huge part of the problem.

    3. I look at a variety of stats, as well as my own impression from watching the games. Stats I particularly point to are PER – Opponent PER (which shows Graham to be a black hole), production by position (both located on 82games.com), on court/off court splits, and BasketballReferences Win Shares. Moon is a bit of a special case, in that a lot of the metrics suggest he was a lot better than he looked, but I, for several reasons, consider this to have been partly a statistical artefact of how bad Graham and Kapono were compared to him — his advanced stats came way down after he moved to Miami.

    4. That’s ‘cuz you consider Bosh to be a centre, but if you treat him and Bargs as both centres, then you’ll be cutting into Bargs minutes, which will further handicap roster 2 (IMO, perhaps not in yours). Amir Johnson, Reggie Evans, Kris Humphries, and Bosh are all normally considered to be power forwards. In any case, the relevant question is, ‘who’s getting minutes’? How much does having Humphries really add to the team, if he is 3rd or 4th big off the bench? If we take your comparison seriously, it looks like Humphries will contribute more than Turkoglu. But that’s nonsense, even if you take his 16.37 PER seriously. Humphries will be lucky to get 10 minutes a night, whereas turk will be contributing 36+. And regardless of PER’s, make Humphries and Turk your starters, and Turk will do more to help your team win. Hump is a classic player who is worse than what his basic stats say, while Turk is better.

    5. Point Gaurd, Small Forward, Power Forward, and Centre. There are various metrics I could point to for this, but how about Scott Carefoot’s Raptors Blog? He ranks all 4 raptors starters in the top half of the eastern conference, and I think that’s fair. Andrea Bargnani is going to have a PER above 15 next season, and Turk may not be an all star but he is an above-average starter whether measured by on court/off court, Win share, or PER – Opponent PER. And it’s pretty obvious that Bosh and Calderon are above average.

  36. khandor Says:

    malefax,

    Thanks for your follow-up comment.

    1. When you get into roster juggling … i.e. determining who you think is going to play how many minutes with what combination of teammates, etc. … that’s a whole different ballgame.

    i. In the case of a comparison like this one … if what you do to group 1 is also what you do to group 2 … i.e. accept their cumulative PER at face value, without a minutes played adjustment for either group … then, that measure should remain constant for each of these two groups.

    ii. If a player with a high PER in a relatively few number of minutes played was to be given more actual PT there is no telling how he might actually perform, i.e. by seeing his PER go up or down. The PER for some players goes up when they get more PT while for others it can remain constant or go down.

    2. Kapono’s contribution to last year’s team as a wing player isn’t in consideration here, at all … only that of Parker, Moon & Graham.

    While many Raptors fans seem to think that the reason this team lost last season was due to the relatively poor performance of those three players at the wing position … I do not share that same opinion.

    Are Parker & Moon & Graham something less than the top dogs who dwell at the wing position in the NBA?

    Yes, they are.

    It is my contention though … that if used properly … they are still “good enough” for a legit team to reach the playoffs with, if the PG, PF & C positions are also manned properly … which, unfortunately, they were NOT last season, for the Raptors … i.e. in some cases with the wrong Starter and others with the wrong Back-up, or a Back-up who was not of the necessary calibre to allow the 5-man unit he was on the floor with to function in an effective way.

    You are speaking with more accuracy when you call out the names of Solomon, Ukic, Kapono & Bargnani, in this regard, than individuals like Parker, Moon & Graham.

    3. i. So you’re not using any one metric, exclusively, or a specific combination of set metrics which produce a specific quantitative value [e.g. like Hollinger's PER]. That’s important to know, so that we’re actually talking about apples and apples rather than apples and oranges [or vegetables :-) ].

    ii. Moon & Graham both suffered from being used at the wrong position way too frequently during their respective tenures with the Raptors.

    e.g. When JG was used as a #4/PF, he was not a solid NBA player; but, when he was used as a #3/SF [or, at times, even as a #2/OG], he was an adequate wing player for the Raptors. Parker & Moon are both players who suffered when they were asked to play minutes beside the likes of Will Solomon, Jason Kapono, Jermaine O’Neal and Andrea Bargnani … as opposed to TJ Ford, Carlos Delfino/MoPete, Kris Humphries and Rasho Nesterovic.

    IMO, your perception of Moon has been tainted by the poor quality of the team’s broadcast crews that have, in genral, done a bad job of describing what his actual strengths & weakness are.

    e.g. Moon is not a driver; yet the Raptors broadcasters repeatedly called for him to use this skill more. Once he was pegged as a driver … who wouldn’t/couldn’t drive … rather than a shooter, who was willing to shoot and could make a decent percentage of his shots, if they were the right kind, from the spots on the floor, etc., who could also defend his position, rebound, block shots, and finish the occasional play at the rim which derived from a pass and not his own dribble … he was done for in Toronto.

    Those who think that Mr. Moon is NOT a serviceable NBA player are grossly mistaken … if he’s put in the right situation to excel.

    IMO, Moon’s “advanced stats” decreased in Miami last season for a different reason rather than him being a low-quality NBA player.

    4. Correct. I consider Chris Bosh to be a Center in the NBA … because this is the best position for him to play.

    In my book, with this collection of players:

    C = Bosh, Bargnani & Nesterovic
    PF = Evans, Johnson & Humphries

    If these players are used in this way, individually, and in conjunction with one another, plus their teammates … these are the best positions for which they are suited.

    re: the possibility of Humphries contributing more than Turkoglu

    This is very real, indeed, if the coaching staff was to decide to use the following line-up in a major way:

    Calderon + Parker + Moon + Humphries + Bosh

    re: the relative contribution of Turk vs Hump

    If the Raptors had an imaginary team that looked like this:

    Calderon + DeRozan + Turkoglu + Humphries + Bosh

    there is absolutely NO GUARANTEE that Turk would end up making more of a contribution … if Humphries is afforded the extra PT he warrants given his chemistry with Bosh and his ability to rebound and defend the #4/PF slot between Turk & Bosh, beside DD & Jose.

    [NOTE: Neither is it a guarantee that Hump would necessarily make more of a contribution than Turk, in that specific line-up. Only time would tell, given the specific skill-sets of these 5 players.]

    5. If the four spots you’re thinking of are:

    PG: Calderon & Jack
    SF: Turkoglu & Wright
    PF: Bosh & Evans [and Johnson]
    C: Bargnani & Nesterovic

    then I would only agree with you on the PG and PF positions.

    Whereas … with Option 2, this is the way I would see things playing out, in terms of positional superiority to the league-wide average:

    PG: Calderon & Jack … yes
    OG: Parker & DeRozan … yes
    SF: Moon & Graham … no
    PF: Evans & Johnson [and Humphries] … no
    C: Bosh & Bargnani … yes

    ——————————————————–

    re: the validity of other web sites’ rankings by position

    Unless these individuals have specific training, expertise and accomplishments when it comes to evaluating the game of basketball properly, I place little stock in what they might have to say about the abilities of specific NBA players.

    e.g. In my professional opinion, Andrea Bargnani is unlikely to perform as a top 7 Center in the EC this season, when you consider Offense, Defense & Rebounding, and put him in the mix with these 12 other players:

    D Howard
    A Horford
    B Lopez
    K Perkins
    S O’Neal
    T Chandler
    J Noah
    M Speights
    B Haywood
    J O’Neal
    A Bogut
    D Lee

    and,

    neither is Hedo Turkoglu, when you put him in the mix with these 9 other players at the SF position:

    L James
    P Pierce
    V Carter
    C Butler
    D Granger
    J Salmons or L Deng
    T Prince
    A Iguodala or T Young
    G Wallace

    Personally, I, too, do not evaluate basketball players strictly according to their individual PER values [or any other statistical metric for that matter].

    ————————-

    PS. It’s always a treat to exchange ideas about the game with someone who conducts him/herself in a polite way and expresses his/her opinions like you did in this comment. Whether I agree or disagree with the points you raised is irrelevant.

  37. khandor Says:

    Spyder,

    Welcome aboard!

    ———————————————————
    re: “Wow – look at these responses!”
    ———————————————————

    In fact … too many to handle thoroughly all at once.

    Hopefully contributors won’t mind waiting for a reply, as the number of comments begin to pile up.

    ——————————————————–
    re: “Ok first of all, I was with ya until the NO DOUBT comment.”
    ——————————————————–

    The “no doubt” part of the comment only applies to the total number of players who fall into the category of being “young, athletic and talented” on the list for Roster Option 2.

    ——————————————————–
    re: “You have some great points (swinging for the fences, speeding up a natural process, signing a few players as opposed to a MAX contract player) and I like what you’ve tried to compare here,”
    ——————————————————–

    Thanks. :-)

    ——————————————————–
    re: “but once you go back and look at the two rosters there’s a lot more to it than saying one is just plain old better than the other….”
    ——————————————————–

    I don’t think this is a conclusion which I’ve drawn in this instance … since the “no doubt” part of the comment only refers to the “total number” of young, athletic and talented players on Roster Option 2, as opposed to Roster 2 simply being “plain old better” than Roster Option 1.

    ——————————————————–
    re: “- BC has put us in a much better position to handle the loss of Bosh. If this happens of course (which is expected at a 95% rate according to the writers at ESPN). “
    ——————————————————–

    Roster Option 2 actually has a pretty good chance to survive the loss of Bosh, as well.

    ——————————————————–
    re: “- Hedo, although way overpriced/valued is a bit of a gamble, but he’s also a sure thing. We can now be sure that we’ll have him, calderon and bargs for the long term, and that’s saying a lot.”
    ——————————————————–

    None of these three players should be viewed as an untouchable, IMO, as they are not the best player at their respective positions in the NBA.

    In order, I like:

    1 Calderon
    2 Turkoglu
    3 Bargnani

    in comparison with the other good-great players in the league today at their respective position.

    ——————————————————–
    re: “Toronto has not been the destination of choice for the majority of big name players so obviously having these 3 and possibly Derozan/Bosh in the mix makes us a pretty decent team (touching only on the starting 5 of course)”
    ——————————————————–

    In addition to Calderon, I like what Bosh brings to the table, at the Center spot … and am looking forward to seeing more of DeRozan in-person before making a judgment about him.

    ——————————————————–
    re: “If Bosh does leave, we can actually fill that hole now and that my friends is most important! You never want all your eggs in one basket (Bosh).”
    ——————————————————–

    Agreed. :-)

    ——————————————————–
    re: “- Looking at your option 2… you have bosh playing center and bargs on the bench. Not gonna happen. We’re committed to developing bargs now that he’s got the big money and I don’t see bosh enjoying the “center” tag again. Sure Evans would still do most of the heavy lifting but Bargs is a starter by all means.”
    ——————————————————–

    I would like nothing more than to see Bosh play well at the PF position while Bargnani does the same at Center.

    Until they do this, however … IMO, Cb4′s best position remains Center, as does Andrea Bargnani’s, coming off the bench.

    Agreed that it’s unlikely to ever be the case with the Raptors that Bargnani is shifted back to the bench again.

    ——————————————————–
    re: “All in all, good attempt to compare two options. You’ve brought up some points worth considering, but I think you missed the mark. Goodluck with the posts!”
    ——————————————————–

    Thanks for your feedback!

    ——————————————————–
    re: “…oh and I love the immature name calling seen above. Makes people look really intelligent!”
    ——————————————————–

    Thanks for your feedback!

    Perhaps those few will take your words to heart.

  38. Scott G Says:

    Khan — you’re a glutton for punishment… kudos for your ability to stay sane through all of this. LOL

    I sure as heck HOPE you’re wrong about all this… but doubt the raps win 50 games this year. Making “big” signings to achieve 6-8th seed status is just plain bad management. We are an organization that refuses to take its lumps when they are deserved, for the long-term benefit.

  39. khandor Says:

    Scott G.,

    Are you familiar with the following quotation:

    Those who do evil to others will come to know me well.”

    Some might actually prefer to say that it’s the opposite way around. :-)

    Related:

    Please see, “42 years of The Evil Empire.”

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