Raptors Bench Strength: In eye of beholder
In line with the series of “Raptors vs Eastern Conference Opponent Match-ups” which are being presenting in this space [i.e. I & II], there’s an interesting POV expressed today, by Arsenalist, at Raptors Republic, i.e. Comparing our bench to others, which sees Toronto’s 2nd Tier of players as actually holding sway this season over the likes of Cleveland, Detroit, and Chicago, while being even with Orlando.
FWIW …
The view from this corner, on this specific topic, is somewhat different:
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RAPTORS BENCH COMPARISON 2009-2010 |
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TOR |
Jarrett Jack |
Marco Belinelli |
Antoine Wright |
Reggie Evans |
Rasho Nesterovic |
ADVANTAGE |
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|
Arsenalist |
khandor |
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Bos |
Eddie House, Tony Allen, Brian Scalabrine, Rasheed Wallace, Baby Davis |
Celtics |
Celtics |
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Cle |
Daniel Gibson, Anthony Parker, Jamario Moon, Leon Powe, Ilgauskas |
Raptors |
Cavs |
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Orl |
J.J Redick, Mickael Pietrus, Matt Barnes, Ryan Anderson, Marcin Gortat |
Even |
Magic |
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Det |
Will Bynum, Charlie Villanueva, Jason Maxiell, Kwame Brown, Chris Wilcox |
Raptors |
Pistons |
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Chi |
Lindsey Hunter, Jannero Pargo, John Salmons, Joakim Noah, Jerome James |
Raptors |
Even |
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Atl |
Jeff Teague, Jamal Crawford, Maurice Evans, Zaza Pachulia, Joe Smith |
Hawks |
Hawks |
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RATIONALE
Vs Boston Celtics
When House gets used beside HOF players like KG, PP & Ray Ray, neither Jack nor Belinelli is a comparable player, in terms of actual productivity.
Davis may comparable to Evans … until you include the fact that Reggie can’t shoot the ball, at all, and is a veritable pylon on D.
Wallace is simply a far better Big than either Evans or Nesterovic.
Vs Cleveland Cavaliers
Parker [6-6] is a semi-legit starting OG-SF in the NBA, compared with Belinelli, who is a legit starting PG-OG.
Moon’s versatility and PER are far better than Wright’s.
Ilgauskas is a solid mid & long range jump-shooter who is a tough check for either Nesterovic or Evans that far away from the basket.
Vs Orlando Magic
Pietrus is a far superior rebounder, defender and scorer than either Belinelli or Wright.
Anderson is a solid mid & long range jump-shooter who is a tough check for either Evans or Nesterovic.
Gortat is simply a far superior Big to Nesterovic or Evans, at this stage of their respective careers.
Vs Detroit Pistons
Villanueva is a far superior scorer, as a Big, to either Evans or Nesterovic.
Maxiell is a tougher player than Evans and a better interior scorer & rebounder than Nesterovic.
Wilcox is just as tough as Evans but a much better scorer.
Vs Chicago Bulls
Neither Belinelli nor Wright is as good a Wing player as Salmons.
Noah is a much better rebounder and shot-blocker than either Evans or Nesterovic.
Salmons & Noah together are enough to off-set the advantage which the Raptors have when compared to the trio of Hunter, Pargo & James.
Vs Atlanta Hawks
Crawford played over Belinelli last season [in G-State] for a reason [i.e. Jamaal can defend Marco; Marco can’t defend Jamaal].
Evans may be a comparable to Wright on D but he is a better player on O, as Maurice actually shoots at a solid percentage.
Pachulia is an even tougher Big than Evans.
Smith is a solid mid-range jump-shooter and a tough check for Nesterovic or Evans that far away from the basket.
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Tags: Anthony Parker, Antoine Wright, Charlie Villanueva, Chicago Bulls, Chris Wilcox, Cleveland Cavaliers, Detroit Pistons, Eddie House, Glen Davis, Jamal Crawford, Jamario Moon, Jarrett Jack, Jason Maxiell, Joakim Noah, Joe Smith, John Salmons, Marcin Gortat, Marco Belnelli, Maurice Evans, Mickael Pietrus, Orlando Magic, Rasheed Wallace, Rasho Nesterovic, Reggie Evans, Ryan Anderson, Toronto Raptors, Zaza Pachulia, Zydrunas Ilgauskas
August 28th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
So what’s going on man? How come you don’t post on RR anymore?
August 28th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
I regard all of those teams as having superior benches than the Raptors.
In terms of bench strength, I think I had the Raptors 20-25th league wide last time I compared them to other teams.
August 28th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Wrong.
Khandor -I disappeared for a while and see you have started you own. Kudos to RR for posting a link. Really don’t miss your comments.
It sure has been an interesting offseason. The above post is one of the most pessimistic viewpoints I’ve seen. You left Amir off the list and I think he’s gonna excite this season. You’ve belittled both Rasho and Evans and are thinking of the Rasheed of the past.
Am not fooling myself, I do think that the Cavs, with a healthy Lebron, will win the conference, handily. After that, no-one should jump to any conclusions. Yeah, the Celtics will still be around, but they haven’t gotten better. They definately have gotten older. Orlando will be interesting, might well battle the Cavs. I am not sold on them yet, we might of stolen their heart. Atlanta has been on the cusp of breaking out, Joe Smith will be an excellent addition. If the Wizards stay healthy, they can be fighting for homecourt.
Talent-wise, the Raptors, potentially, can match up with most. Depth-wise, I think we are deeper than most of our expected competition. Triano has the job af bringing it alltogether.
So many things can go right for this team, just as all went wrong last season, I believe we are an X-Factor going in to this season. I am sure we are a playoff team, the question is how high can we place. Anointing the Celtics and Magic in the top 3 is premature.
August 28th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
I think the Raptors could use another piece at the backup 3/2. Antoine Wright, for all his supposed defensive and rebounding prowess (according to Jay Triano), has proven over his career to be far from a standout rebounder, let alone a decent one, and his defensive skills haven’t blown me away.
Then there is the matter of his offensive arsenal, which has been extremely limited no matter where he’s played in the NBA.
There must be a minimum salary option out there to take this scrub’s place in the rotation. Heck, I’d probably take Joey Graham over him without much hesitation.
A cheap late draft pick such as Sam Young or Danny Green would have looked awfully nice rounding out this lineup, as you have been saying for some time Khandor.
I’d even say both Raptor units would look better and more balanced if Bargnani and Rasho switched places, but a lot of people would scoff at that idea.
August 28th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
well, i agree with khandor for this particular topic, instead of arsenalist.
Jack is a solid guard who can lead the offense, get tough on defense, tons of starting5 experience. So he’s probably better than most of the bench guards in the league, it’s clear.
But he’s our 6th man and we know most teams(esp. good ones) has a legitimate 6th man, generally a scorer who gets 20+ minutes, mixed minutes with the starting5. My opinion, Raps (Jarrett) can barely even themselves with other teams -opitimistic, i must add- at this particular 6th man point of view. (i’m tryin’ to say: Salmons 28 mins or Sheed 23 mins are just too valuable compared to 8s or 12s from rotation guys. it may single handedly win bench battle for a team.)
Marco is a player who has tons of potential -i believe- but at this point, he’s an unknown player who may shoot 40% fg or -i wish- 40%3pt. defense? uh.
Wright is gonna be Raps superstar wing stopper, and that’s so valuable for Raps defense but he has a career of missed wide open shots all around.
So, Raps wing depth is very questionable (depends on Marco’s gellin the team, mostly) and comparing to other teams, i repeat at this particualr point, are worse from many of them.
August 28th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Rasho and Evans (Amir in some stretches of season) are may be -just may be- and average bigs from the bench compared with the others in the league. Yes, CB4, Bargs, Rasho and Evans are an above average to good rotation, but we are speaking about the bench here.
offensively they only have Rasho jumpers and defensively Rasho’s European fundamental defense -a good one, we all know- with Reggie fighting all over -literally-.
As a result, in my opinion, Raps have advantage in pg, disadvantage in wings, and are even at bigs. 6th man is another disadvantage, so Raps don’t have one of the best 15 benches, thats for sure.
August 28th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Seriously Khandor where you been ? Never been a fan of your posts but at least it gets disscussions flowing…
August 30th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Arsenalist,
Hope all is going well with you.
I’ll send you an email later today with an update.
August 30th, 2009 at 11:50 am
Dave,
20-25 seems like it’s in the ballpark.
There is individual talent on this year’s team, no doubt, but not really the kind that is destined to provide the team with a fair number of individual mismatches [in terms of O, D and R] coming from their bench.
August 30th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Tinman,
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re: “Khandor - I disappeared for a while and see you have started you own. Kudos to RR for posting a link.”
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You see that I have started my own what?
RR has been posting links to my blog for a long time.
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re: “Really don’t miss your comments.”
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Each is entitled to his/her own opinion about this. If that’s yours, then, so be it.
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re: “It sure has been an interesting offseason. The above post is one of the most pessimistic viewpoints I’ve seen. You left Amir off the list and I think he’s gonna excite this season.”
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I didn’t leave Amir Johnson’s name off the list.
Amir’s name was left out by Arsenalist.
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re: “You’ve belittled both Rasho and Evans and are thinking of the Rasheed of the past.”
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I’ve belittled Rasho and Evans?
Rasho was a solid veteran Back-up Center for the Raptors 2 years ago … who has had a very nice career in the NBA … and was relegated to the bench for much of last season with the Pacers.
Evans has been a solid rebounding PF to-date … who is fairly one-dimensional.
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re: “Am not fooling myself, I do think that the Cavs, with a healthy Lebron, will win the conference, handily. After that, no-one should jump to any conclusions. Yeah, the Celtics will still be around, but they haven’t gotten better. They definately have gotten older.”
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You’re entilted to hold this opinion, if you wish.
From my POV, however:
The Celtics have gotten better …
- adding Rasheed Wallace [i.e. although he had a down year last season he has been one of the main cogs in Detroit since his arrival ... and is now going into a situation with the Celtics where he really might be able to excel, as never before ... lining up behind and beside a teammate like Kevin Garnett]
- replacing Leon Powe with Sheldon Williams, another youngish Big
- rumoured to be adding Marquis Daniels on the Wing
- Bill Walker is going into his 2nd-yr
- Tony Allen is another year along in his recovery from his serious injury
- adding a player from the draft like Lester Hudson
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re: “Orlando will be interesting, might well battle the Cavs. I am not sold on them yet, we might of stolen their heart.”
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Stolen their heart? … in signing Turkoglu?
Not in my book.
Otis Smith knows exactly what he’s doing when he let’s a player like Turk walk for $50.0 M … and replaces him with a TALENT like Vince Carter.
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“Atlanta has been on the cusp of breaking out, Joe Smith will be an excellent addition. If the Wizards stay healthy, they can be fighting for homecourt.
Talent-wise, the Raptors, potentially, can match up with most. Depth-wise, I think we are deeper than most of our expected competition. Triano has the job af bringing it alltogether.
So many things can go right for this team, just as all went wrong last season, I believe we are an X-Factor going in to this season. I am sure we are a playoff team, the question is how high can we place. Anointing the Celtics and Magic in the top 3 is premature.”
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Boston won the title in 2007-2008 … and have improved their team.
Cleveland won 66 games last season … and have improved their team.
Orlando went to the NBA Finals last season … and have improved their team.
TIER 1
Boston, Cleveland, Orlando [in any order]
TIER II
Just about everybody else … with very little separating them from one another.
In my book, the teams in TIER I are playing Stud Poker, as Big-time Chip Leaders; while the teams in TIER II are shooting craps with their respective stacks.
August 30th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
INFO,
I’ve been doing what I do here for a long time … and, plan on doing it this way for a long time still.
Anytime you’d like to reach me directly, you can do so, right here.
Cheers
August 30th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
zuzu,
Welcome aboard!
August 30th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Jim,
Welcome aboard!
August 30th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Of the big 3 - the only lock to repeat and improve upon their success of last season are the Cavs, and thats because of the Lebron factor.
Anointing the aging Celtics, and Magic to repeat their, uh, magic, from last season is premature. Both coaches are on verge of getting “tuned out”. Yeah, on paper both look good, and both will make playoffs, but I expect their win totals to decrease from last season. I am not as convinced that they have improved.
Think the overall level of the East has improved and teams as the Raptors and Wizards, by all accounts, should make the playoffs, winning more than last season. Both teams are talented, and it will be interesting to see how both coaching staffs handle their teams. I see both teams as wild cards and as of know, 60 odd days till tip off, see both being capable of surprising.
August 30th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
Tinman,
I would actually agree with a position that says something like this:
“Guaranteeing that the Celtics, Cavaliers and Magic actually finish in the top three spots in the EC this season is a case of folly.”
This is different though from someone who says this, instead:
“Cleveland, Boston and Orland finished No. 1, No. 2 and No. 3 last season, in the EC, and given the fact that all three teams have improved their personnel this summer, it is higly accurate to suggest that they should be seen as the TIER I teams, heading into next season, given that they finished last year with 66, 62 & 59 wins, respectively, while the No. 4 team amassed only 47 W’s.”
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Doc Rivers and SVG do not appear to be on the edge of being “tuned out” by their players.
Neither team might reach the same W totals they had last season because the teams at the bottom of the standings have improved for the most part, creating an even larger middle-of-the-pack group in the NBA this season. This fact alone, however, will not necessarily mean that the Celtics, Cavs and Magic will have failed to improve their teams this summer or in the regular season.
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If the Wizards can remain healthy, their roster is improved enough to make the playoffs this season.
The Raptors are not in this same situation, however.
Although Toronto’s roster has a good deal of NBA talent this season … it does not have the depth of solid experienced consistent players and a coach that Washington has, at this point in the summer:
Raptors - Bosh, Calderon, Turkoglu, Jack, Turkoglu & Evans
Wizards - Arenas, Butler, Jamison, Miller, Haywood, Stevenson, Oberto + Saunders
While I would love the Raptors to have a good-to-great season this year … if you asked me right now to put my hard earned $$$ down on which of these two teams is a “better proposition” to reach the playoffs come spring, unfortunately, I would have to place my wager on the Wizards.
August 31st, 2009 at 2:38 pm
“Neither team might reach the same W totals they had last season because the teams at the bottom of the standings have improved for the most part, creating an even larger middle-of-the-pack group in the NBA this season. This fact alone, however, will not necessarily mean that the Celtics, Cavs and Magic will have failed to improve their teams this summer or in the regular season.”
Boy Khandor - you always hedge your bets.
August 31st, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Tinman,
Actually …
Given that part of what I do involves forecasting correctly the outcome of specific sporting events … what you said there couldn’t, possibly, be further from the truth.
i.e. Hedging bets is not part of my portfolio.
In fact, part of what I get paid to do involves the making of highly accurate observations … about different sports … while being able to parce out extraneous information and concentrating, specifically, on what makes the most sense, even though at first-glance to others it might appear to be contradictory to conventional ways of thinking/perceptions.
The world in which I live is incredibly exact with little margin for error.