Which franchise made out best from 4 team trade?
Prior to the recent transaction between the Raptors [Bryan Colangelo], Mavericks [Donnie Nelson], Magic [Otis Smith & Dave Twardzik] and Grizzlies [Chris Wallace], this is what each of those team’s rosters looked like:
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ROSTERS BEFORE 4-TEAM TRADE
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No |
RAPTORS |
MAVERICKS |
MAGIC |
GRIZZLIES |
|
1 2 3 4 5 |
Calderon Parker–UFA Marion–UFA Bosh Bargnani |
Kidd Wright Howard Nowitzki Dampier |
Nelson Carter Turkoglu–UFA Lewis Howard |
Conley Mayo Gay Warrick–RFA Gasol |
|
6 7 8 9 10 |
Ukic Douby Evans O’Bryant |
Barea Terry George Bass–UFA Hollins–RFA |
Johnson Redick Pietrus Anderson Gortat–RFA |
Jaric Richardson Young–R Arthur Thabeet–R |
|
11 12 |
Banks Humphries |
Carroll Singleton–UFA |
Richardson–RFA |
Miles Haddadi |
|
13 14 15 16 17 |
Delfino–RFA Jawai M-Bonsu–RFA |
Beaubois–R Ross Williams Nivins–R Stackhouse |
|
Carroll–R
|
|
TPE |
Adams $0.7 M Kapono $1.1 M Moon $0.7 M Solomon $0.7 M |
|
Dooling $2.0 M Wilks $0.8 M |
|
Coming out the other side, today, this is what they look like now, respectively:
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ROSTERS AFTER 4-TEAM TRADE
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||||
|
No |
RAPTORS |
MAVERICKS |
MAGIC |
GRIZZLIES |
|
1 2 3 4 5 |
Calderon Wright Turkoglu Bosh Bargnani |
Kidd Howard Marion Nowitzki Dampier |
Nelson Carter Pietrus Lewis Howard |
Conley Mayo Gay Warrick–RFA Gasol |
|
6 7 8 9 10 |
Ukic DeRozan–R George Evans O’Bryant |
Barea Terry Ross Bass–UFA Hollins–RFA |
Johnson Redick Richardson–RFA Anderson Gortat–RFA |
Jaric Richardson Young–R Arthur Thabeet–R |
|
11 12 |
Banks Delfino–RFA |
Carroll Singleton–UFA |
|
Miles Haddadi |
|
13 14 15 |
M-Bonsu–RFA
|
Beaubois–R Williams Humphries |
|
Carroll–R |
|
16 17 |
|
Nivins–R Jawai |
|
|
|
TPE |
Adams $0.7 M Kapono $1.1 M Moon $0.7 M Solomon $0.7 M |
|
Dooling $2.0 M Wilks $0.8 M |
|
|
DP |
|
|
|
2nd Rounder, Tor/2016 |
|
CC |
|
|
|
From Dallas From Toronto |
Legend:
UFA - Unrestricted Free Agent; RFA - Restricted Free Agent; R - Rookie Player; TPE - Traded Player Exception; DP - Draft Pick; CC - Cash Considerations
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The Perspective From This Corner
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IMPROVEMENT TO ROSTER SITUATION
|
|||
|
TEAM |
MINUS |
ADD |
NET GAIN |
|
MAVERICKS |
Wright George Stackhouse |
Marion Buckner Humphries Jawai |
Substantial improvement. i.e. Marion is the best overall player in the deal [+]. Period. Humphries is a serviceable Big [+]. Jawai is a reserve [0]. Buckner will be cut. Stackhouse was inactive. George was a reserve. Wright was a pseudo-Starter only. RESULT: ++ Gain |
|
MAGIC |
Turkoglu |
TPE $7.0-to-10.0 M |
Zero immediate improvement, i.e. Add Carter; Lose Turkoglu [0] … BUT with a gigantic CAVEAT. Now have $7.0-to-10.0 M worth of TPE’s [+], should they be in contention for a championship this coming season, in an effort to push them over the final hurdle. A Commitment To Winning It All. RESULT: 0|+ Gain |
|
RAPTORS |
Parker Marion Humphries Jawai |
Wright Turkoglu George |
Marginal improvement, only. i.e. Parker is a better player than Wright [-]. Turkoglu is a better clutch player than Marion [+], but Marion is a better player overall and a lot more athletic [-]. George and Humphries are even. Turkoglu commitment provides stability at #3/SF [+] RESULT: >> 0 Gain |
|
GRIZZLIES |
Buckner |
CC [?] |
Almost Zero improvement. CC plus a 2nd Round Draft Pick way, way off in the distance. RESULT: > 0 Gain |
The fact is, however, that the Cleveland Cavaliers [Danny Ferry] MAY have benefitted most of all from this specific transaction, as they subsequently gained unfettered access to Anthony Parker, the exact sort of complementary wing player they were searching for … to augment LeBron James & Co., in an effort to win their 1st NBA Championship.
Your feedback is welcome in the “Comments” section. 
Tags: Ahmad Nivins, Andrea Bargnani, Anthony Johnson, Anthony Parker, Antoine Wright, Brandon Bass, Bryan Colangelo, Carlos Delfino, Chris Bosh, Chris Wallace, Cleveland Cavaliers, Dallas Mavericks, Danny Ferry, Darius Miles, Darrell Arthur, Dave Twardzik, Demar DeRozan, DeMarre Carroll, Devean George, Dirk Nowitzki, Donnie Nelson, Dwight Howard, Erick Dampier, Hakim Warrick, Hamed Haddadi, Hasheem Thabeet, Hassan Adams, Hedo Turkoglu, Jamario Moon, Jameer Nelson, James Singleton, Jason Kapono, Jason Kidd, Jason Terry, Jeremy Richardson, Jerry Stackhouse, JJ Barea, JJ Redick, Jose Calderon, Josh Howard, Keyon Dooling, Kris Humphries, Lebron James, Marc Gasol, Marcin Gortat, Marcus Banks, Marko Jaric, Matt Carroll, Memphis Grizzlies, Mickael Pietrus, Mike Conley, Mike Wilks, Nathan Jawai, OJ Mayo, Orlando Magic, Otis Smith, Patrick O'Bryant, Pops Mensah-Bonsu, Quentin Richardson, Quincy Douby, Quinton Ross, Rashard Lewis, Reggie Evans, Rodrigue Beaubois, Roko Ukic, Rudy Gay, Ryan Anderson, Ryan Hollins, Sam Young, Shawn Marion, Shawne Williams, Toronto Raptors, Vince Carter, Will Solomon
July 10th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Good post Khandor.
One issue: Anthony Parker was not involved in this trade and you have him in as a negative. The whole point (I believe anyway!) is what it opened up for Toronto. 24 hours ago we could only sign min level players - and our bench would have looked terrible. Today we can sign a MLE, BA, etc which DRASTICALLY changes the composition of the bench.
So, I def see your points - but can we really judge the trade before we add the MLE, BA, etc FAs? My personal view is that this was the critical piece and Wright/George largely facilitators - not players we actually sought! Wright will be a bit of insurance at the 2, but the real value of the trade is the enabling of the Raps to sign perhaps Barnes, Rasho, and another decent 1 or 2. Is it not? Cheers, CanuckX
July 10th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
I didn’t think you were going to say Cleveland. HOWEVER, I’m pretty sure the Cavs would have got Parker regardless of what the Raptors did.
July 10th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
(long post warning)
==========================
I also respectfully disagree. I have two, rather drawn out points.
1. I won’t be as kind and generous as canuckx. I generally feel that you included/failed to include certain factors to help beef up your argument, which regardless of whether it was intentional or not, is unfair.
FACTORS INCORRECTLY INCLUDED/EXCLUDED
For example, in your analysis, you talk about Vince Carter, who was not part of the deal, yet you fail to consider the players the Raptors are looking to sign, for whom the deal was structured in the way it was.
Of course, like Canuckx said, you also added AP as a loss, even though he was not part of the deal (aside from perhaps being one of the aforementioned potential FA signees). In this case, if he was such a loss for the Raptors, shouldn’t this deal make the Raptors look even BETTER, as they were able to get Turkoglu AND make room to sign AP (AND a couple other players)?
When the “add” column to the Raptors is far more complete and accurate (i.e. the MLE/BAE are used), and extraneous parties such as AP and VC are removed, there’s no way you can even come close to arguing that Orlando got the better end of the stick compared to the Raptors. Feel free to stick to your guns. But I’m telling you sir, you have no ammo in them.
==========================
2. Yes, Orlando got something for nothing, but that $10 mil exception isn’t likely to be used. If it IS used on a player, I will happily go back to re-evaluating who got the better end of the trade at that point.
Even then, I’m certain that what the Magic will have gained from where they started off with is relatively small compared to the Raptors. As for what they gained now? Not much.
I think part of the flaw of your argument stems from the failure to consider the starting point and ending point as factors in who ‘gained’ from the deal, despite your very cool charts.
CONSIDERING THE STARTING POINT TO CALCULATE GAIN
The Magic gained cash considerations from the deal for nothing really, but again, assuming what we know about them not spending it for any new players, they gain nothing. They should not have a plus. If they do sign someone, only THEN can they get a plus.
The Raptors on the other hand, were in a precarious situation, whereby they had committed the majority of the cap to signing Turkoglu outright (as stated by BC in yesterday’s press conference). Yes, this was a fault on the part of management, but where we were and where we are now are remarkably different points on the spectrum.
With this deal, the Raptors were able to secure Turkoglu, the MLE, the BAE, rid itself of some redundancies, (I’m counting more than one plus here). There’s no way we should be at a neutral/marginal point on the gain spectrum
============================
There’s a definite argument that Dallas came out very well from this trade, perhaps better than the Raptors, so I won’t contest you with Dallas getting two big plus signs.
But between the Raptors and Magic, I don’t see a contest. You shouldn’t either, sir. I say that as humbly as I can.
July 10th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
And to my second point, I didn’t even include George and Wright as pluses, because even if you don’t think they bring much basketball acumen (which I believe to be untrue anyways), they’re both on expiring contracts, which also has value as well.
July 10th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Update time: Magic to sign Brandon Bass - but I doubt his signing had anything to do with the trade exception.
As promised though, I will reconsider my stance.
July 10th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Who benefited most:
4) Grizzlies - Acquired some Good will with the teams (?) and dumped Buckner (and got Jar Jar … but lost Scooby Doo)
3) Orlando - Trade exception would normally be good, but they’re too close to the luxury tax. It does give the opportunity to add something good.
2) Mavericks - They got Marion (but 4 years @ 8 mil per - yikes! ) when they cap situation precluded that. The sign & trade made it possible. Toronto was gonna lose him anyways — no way he’s worth 9 mil per.
1) Raptors - I believe they won, because instead of probably being a 7th or 8th place finisher, they now have the ability (with the Exceptions), to push themselves up to a 4th or 5th place spot. Of course that depends on being healthy, but I believe this 4 team trade gave T.O. an added opportunity, when it seemed unlikely before. BC gets an A+ for this trade.
Now if Bosh can resign for a REASONABLE price, I think we have the makings of something good — sooner rather than later.
July 10th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
hmmmm… I’m just curious if it really matters who “won or lost” in the deal as long as it made T.O. a better team. Really… why would it matter if Dallas or Orlando got the best part of the deal as long as Toronto becomes a better team because of it?
1) Marion wasn’t going to sign with us anyways for the most part…. Hedo was BC’s guy and he needed to make more room to sign him (or atleast make room so he could sign more than just Hedo)
2) losing AP was likely going to happen anyways. I would have loved to see him coming off the bench this year but so be it.
3)Can’t ignore the extra $ BC gets to spend now… that was the entire reason for the deal… Wright and George were necessities to make the deal happen. The fact that we got two wings (albeit marginal ones at best) is just a bonus. For all we know right now they may do nothing other than help Banks keep the bench warm for Bosh, Jose etc.
4) Shows why gets to wear those giant collars
July 10th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
edit:
4) shows why BC gets to wear those giant collars
July 10th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
CanuckX,
With all due respect:
1. 48 hours ago the Raptors had not signed Hedo Turkoglu to a contract, nor had they yet traded for him at all.
2. At no time in this process did the Raptors ever lose their right to the MLE or the LLE.
3. A direct consequence of the Raptors decision to complete this specific trade was that they were going to remain over the Salary Cap based on the money they were going to pay Hedo Turkoglu rather than shell out to their own Free Agents, #1. Shawn Marion and #2. Anthony Parker. The Raptors lost the services of Anthony Parker, in return for the services of Antoine Wright, in the course of this trade.
4. The Raptors always had the right to sign players like Barnes and Nesterovic and another decent PG or OG, through this entire process … and it’s a scam for anyone [and I'm not pointing an acusatory finger at you here] to try and put forward the idea that they somehow lost this right and then magically regained it via this trade.
Have you ever played three card monty?
At no time does the card you seek actually disappear … it’s just made to seem that way by the professional who is exceptionally sound at the art of Tom-Foolery [aka, slight-of-hand ... or, in this case, perhaps, ideas].
If I make you think … either on purpose or by accident … that you’ve lost something of value, when in fact you have not, it’s amazing how grateful some people can become when I then pull that same object from behind your left ear, to your own shreiks of disbelief.
i.e. Hey, how’d you do that?
July 10th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
RaptorthoseLeafs
More like this trade gives them the chance to have a chance at 8th, the first chance being BC’s opportunity to make the most out the 12 million or so they now have. If he screws that up, which he easily could considering his recent track record, I would bet they fall far short of the playoffs. In any case, this team is going to get smashed on the boards and will need to shoot the lights out to compete (sounds familiar).
If you think Marion at 4 years @ 8 per year is ‘yikes’ worthy, what does that say about Toronto’s handling of Turkoglu, who isn’t even as good a player as Marion?
July 10th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
Raps Fan,
The Raptors had difficult choices to make, in this process.
That said …
It was once the Raptors had made their choice that Anthony Parker walked away.
IMO, his decision to sign with Cleveland came about as a consequence of this trade.
July 10th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
Mash,
First. Welcome aboard!
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Second.
——————————————————–
re: For example, in your analysis, you talk about Vince Carter, who was not part of the deal, yet you fail to consider the players the Raptors are looking to sign, for whom the deal was structured in the way it was.
——————————————————–
You are free to disagree and I will always respect that, however …
IMO, there’s a difference between including Carter and excluding players who are not on the Raptors’ roster yet but who they actually had the opprtunity to sign/add at any number of stages throughout this process.
Carter is on the Magic’s roster.
Barnes and Nesterovic are not … and should only be considered as upgrades over the players who the Raptors had at those respective positions orignally, which is something that could have been done outside the parameters of this trade quite easily … e.g. outlined by Dave on nbaroundtable [i.e. all that needed to happen was that certain existing Raptors get cut while adding whatever UFA were interested in signing with Toronto].
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Third.
The “Add” column is complete, on the basis of this trade. i.e. the MLE & LLE could have been exercised by the Raptors at any time in this process, as Toronto never lost its rights to these … despite what you may have been led to believe by the mis-informed reports of others.
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Fourth.
re: The Starting Point for the Magic
They are the reigning EC Champions.
They had added Vince Carter, at the expense of Lee, Battie & Foyle.
That’s where their actual Starting Point was, relative to this trade.
What the Magic have gained in this process is far from nothing, whether they choose to exercise their TE or not.
Option 1 - If they do use it
They are going to be among the front-runners to return to the NBA Finals, flush with the knowledge that their franchise is 100% committed to trying its best to WIN IT ALL.
Option 2 - If they don’t use it
A. They don’t need it to WIN IT ALL … due to the other players on their roster who have them functionaing at the High End of the EC without exercising their TE.
or
B. They feel their team doesn’t have a legit shot at Winning it all this year, in which case they will simply let it expire.
How many options do you see in the above choices?
I see 3 … 2 of which are very good situations for the Magic. 2 of 3 equals 67%.
If you were a betting man and I offerred you a wager today that goes like this:
You have a 67% of winning the Lottery tomorrow, if you accept this voucher from me for the value of $7.0 M, to be redeemed in order to purchase that share of the tickets sold in said Lottery, which will pay you out in the neighbourhood of, let’s say, $25.0 M … if you’re lucky number come up.
Would you take that take from me, for free … and then think that you actually have relatively poor chance of collecting that $25.0 M from the Lottery?
Or, not?
It might not be the best analogy possible, on short notice … dinner is being served shortly
… but I think you get my drift, as mere Food For [additional] Thought.
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Fifth.
re: the Raptors starting point
Please read what I’ve written here in other comments pertaining to the fallacy of the Raptors’ supposedly lost MLE & LLE, regarding the recapture of that which has, in fact, never been lost, in the first place.
The Raptors finished 13th in the EC last season with 33 W’s, traded Jason Kapono for Reggie Evans, and drafted DeMar DeRozan.
That’s their exact starting point.
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Mash,
From what you’ve written on RR, you already have my due respect. Whether we agree with one another is irrelevant to me.
Thanks for submitting your comment.
July 10th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Raptorthoseleafs,
If this is your first comment here [I can't recall for sure] … Welcome aboard!
———————————–
The only quibble I have with your take on the situation is this quote, right here:
” … I believe this 4 team trade gave T.O. an added opportunity, when it seemed unlikely before … “
i.e. Please see what I’ve written above regarding Three-Card Monty and disappearing coins behind your ears.
—————–
Overall, I think the Raptors took a small step in a positive direction.
That’s not a bad thing to me … only not nearly as beneficial as what others have been duped into believing based on slight-of-hand.
July 10th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Hardcore Raps,
Read what you wrote again, in the following light this time.
1. Everything that you just credited the Raptors for accomplishing through this trade could also have been accomplished in at least one other way, as well …
e.g. By the willingness of MLSE and Bryan Colangelo, as its chief representative, being willing to exceed the Luxury Tax.
IMO, the Primary reason he is employed by the Raptors is not to go about the business of winning NBA championships but rather … to filed a highly competitive team which plays an entertaining brand of basketball, wins its fair share of games, is perceived by its fanbase to be trying hard to put a “winning” product on the floor and is DESIGNED TO MAKE A BOATLOAD MONEY FOR ITS OWNERSHIP GROUP.
This trade accomplished a great deal if you happen to hold a similar set of priorities for this franchise as a loyal fan.
I, on the other hand, actually expect the team to WIN the League Championship in the not too-distant future, while being prepared to do the stuff it takes to accomplish THAT specific goal.
July 10th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
I agree with the posters and disagree with you that Anthony Parker has nothing to do with the trade. Had they not done the deal, it is entirely possible that Parker would still be gone, since he was an unrestricted free agent. It is false that the trade caused Parker to leave, because the trade allowed the raptors to keep his bird rights and the Raptors were still well under the cap. This means that the raptors had ample opportunity to keep Parker, if they chose. their choice not to is entirely independent.
July 10th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Malefax,
FYI …
I have an immediate family member who has coined the saying,
“It could happen. Anything is possible.”
It’s a philosophy of life with which I’m quite familiar.
———————————-
As you know already, I respect your right to disagree with my perception of the role that this trade played in AP’s decision to sign with Cleveland.
IMO, if you listen to the words of his agent Henry Thomas, it’s the case that he was kept informed of the Raptors plan to go with Turkoglu over the other options [plural] which they had … and once that realization was laid out understood that the Raptors were not prepared to pay his client as much money as AP could get from the Cavaliers, in conjunction with the opportunity to chase his 1st NBA championship.
The Raptors chose where to put their money with this trade as much as they did when they signed Bargnani earlier this week and … at the amount that would have been required to re-sign Anthony Parker … decided to replace him with some combination of Antoine Wright, Devean George and, in a sense, Carlos Delfino who they tendered a qualifying offer to earlier during this off season.
Either way it’s viewed, however, my inclusion of Parker as a “minus” in this trade is based more on the fact that he simply isn’t on the roster any longer moreso than whose exact choice it was to part ways, i.e. his or the Raptors.
July 10th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
Thanks Khandor. No matter how its spinned differently, the Raptors are a lot better after all the offseason activity - and likely to improve further after all the cards are dealt.
To make a point, you can add silly scenarios like AP to the mix (which still baffles me). Where you’re going to get traction is to once in awhile balance the views rather than always being one-sided, negative and shock jock like opinions. It does get ratings (hell, I’m commenting!) but I’m more likely to return if I see that once in a blue moon endorsement of a Raptors trade, coach, player, GM, mascot, Dance Pak etc. Believe it or not, every so often good decisions are made, players play to their potential etc. And creditbility is gained from understanding the difference. Else it just becomes a Rush Limbaugh type rant - and most readers don’t want that.
There is no question you are a smart individual that understands bball. It’s the inexplicable agenda that turn readers off - readers that would like to have honest debate. Why do I even bother to read or comment?! Because I think you have the ability to be quite good - but you would have to lose the agenda/act. The answer you *may* give is “I’m just being a realistic!”, which deep down we both know is not true. I hope not though - a little more balance and I will become a frequent reader and supporter.
All the best, CanuckX
July 10th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
Thanks for the welcome, and thank you for the response. However, I would like to counter back your rebuttals.
re: Carter
It’s kind of unfair, imbalanced, inaccurate to compare a complete Magic roster and an incomplete Raptors roster. It’s like comparing two blockbuster movies when you watch all of one (the Orlando Magic roster is fully set) and half of the other (Toronto Raptors, which is not). The trade was made in the way it was so that they could get the person they wanted without trading away their ability to sign other players to improve the team. It was a basic tenet of why they made the trade in the way they did.
Now regarding Mr. Carter, I tried hard to look at things from your point of view, and it still makes no sense to include him as part of the trade, considering the Raptors’ players-to-be as not. It makes more sense to include the Raptors players to be (since they are absolutely, 100% relative to the trade) as oppose to Vince (since he is not). Try looking at it from the perspective of my movie analogy.
======================
re: Add column/MLE/BAE
Taking into account your point of view of the MLE/BAE, by my estimation, the add column is still incomplete. I haven’t been reading the major media outlets for the MLE/BAE because most of them choose not to go into the details, or believed that there was no way we could have got them anyways.
I actually went to Larry Coon’s FAQ on Salary Cap, you should check it out (http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q20), and the simple thing one needs to know (which I figure you do) is that you need to be over the cap to keep your eligibility for the MLE/BAE (hence, why it’s called an exception, right?). With the sequence of events triggered with signing Turkoglu outright (and renouncing Parker/Marion et al in order to be able to sign him), we would have lost our MLE, because when all was said and done, we would have been under the cap.
So yes, while you are correct that we had the MLE to begin with, the sequence of events would mean we would lose our MLE/BAE - which as I admitted above would have been a screw-up on the part of management.
Which brings me to my next rebuttal…
===================
re: Starting Point
Remember, we agreed to sign Turkoglu in principle BEFORE the trade went down. So, whether the player is here or not, we were going to be paying him anyways. His salary will have counted against us before this trade went down. So I am going to dispute your starting point for the Raptors.
As for the Magic, I don’t dispute your starting point for them, but again, you’re not comparing apples and apples. What you’ve illustrated is that the Magic, whether or not they have and use this trade exception are still very very well off.
That’s like having a 100 M race where one runner starts at 90 M (Orlando), and the other starts at 50 M (Toronto), and they have a trade which takes the first runner to 92 M and the second runner to 75M. Forgetting the actual numbers used here, there’s no doubt that the Raptors improved far greater relative to their position than the Magic did.
I just realized…I think I know exactly where you and I (along with every other Raptors fan) differ and it has come down to semantics. I’ll leave my other arguments up anyways, but here’s what I think.
The title of your blogpost and what you’ve been arguing is which team “made out best” from the trade, and yes, in terms of where they will be come next April, it could arguably be (Cavs) > Mavs > Magic > Raptors > Grizzlies are the best in that order.
BUT
What everyone else was talking about was which team IMPROVED/GAINED the most. And to that, there’s absolutely NO WAY that the Orlando Magic gained more out of the trade than the Raptors did.
None. I hope you can agree with this.
July 11th, 2009 at 6:44 am
Vey well said (and supported) Mash.
The article reads as what team IS better NOT what team IMPROVED the most (despite the title).
We’ll make it simple - let’s see what team improves the most year over year - by the delta in win count.
July 11th, 2009 at 7:35 am
CanuckX,
——————————————————–
No matter how its spinned differently, the Raptors are a lot better after all the offseason activity - and likely to improve further after all the cards are dealt.
——————————————————–
IMO, the Raptors have made upgrades in certain areas thus far but it would be a mistake in judgment to assess this improvement as being “a lot better“, just yet:
No BEFORE ADV AFTER
1 Calderon = Calderon
2 Parker <– Wright … AP is significantly better
3 Marion = Turkoglu … Turkoglu is NOT significantly better
4 Bosh = Bosh
5 Bargnani = Bargnani
—————————-
6 Ukic = Ukic
7 Kapono –> DeRozan * … cyclical due to draft
8 Graham = George … Devean is NOT significantly better
9 Humphries = Evans … Reggie is NOT significantly better
10 O’Bryant –> Nesterovic … Rasho is much better!
—————————-
11 Douby = Delfino … is different but NOT much better
12 Mensah-Bonsu = Mensah-Bonsu
—————————-
13 Banks = Banks
14 Jawai ? Barnes … jury still out on Nathan
15 Voskuhl = O’Bryant
Those who are looking at these changes in an excessively positive light are the ones looking through rose-coloured spectacles.
Being “realistic” has nothing to do with it.
Either my basketball judgment is Right, or it happens to be wrong.
Trust that … although I am a Raptors fan at heart … I am making this specific assessment on a strictly PROFESSIONAL LEVEL, as an expert evaluator of athletic talent & ability.
Although it may SEEM to others that there is a certain “shock jock” aspect to what I write and some of the opinions which I hold … trust that … this is not the case, at all.
I am not interested in achieving “higher ratings”, or a “greater number of hits”, or in being a hoops version of “Rush Limbaugh”, etc.
At all times, others [you included] are free to disagree with my assessments. Time will tell which ones of us are proven RIGHT and which ones are proven Wrong.
If I come across as being arrogant or condescending to certain others … it’s because I AM RIGHT A GREAT DEAL OF THE TIME and simply state those facts.
I could go through the last 2 years of decisions which have been made by this team that have turned out to be WRONG and point out to you and others how I said publicly BEFORE THE FACT that a decison of that nature was NOT going to produce the expected result but something either much less than that or in fact the total opposite … but I won’t bore you and others and myself by going through that littany, again.
In my experience … someone who says what I say and is then RIGHT as much as I am is in all likelihood going to make a fair number of people upset because that then means that those people are themselves WRONG in terms of their own basketball judgment.
Unfortunately … there is little I can do about that except, perhaps, continue to point out to those people when I think they are going off track in hopes of allowing them to learn something different about the game. How open THEY are to this type of learning environment is dependent on THEIR character and intelligence.
Good decisions are made by different people with different organizations each and every day. When I see decisions which fit into this category, that is what I say. When I see decisions which do not fit into this category, in my judgment, that too is what I say.
e.g. Drafting DeRozan was a decent decison but it was NOT as good as Trading Down in that situation. Period.
Look carefully at what the SA Spurs have accomplished this off season. I said that the Raptors should be looking to add a player like Nando De Colo in the 2nd Round … and what organization, lo and behold, chose to pick that player with a 2nd Round selection? The Spurs, led by Gregg Popovich & RC Buford.
The Spurs are about to go over the Luxury Tax Threshold in a big way, as a small-mid market team … BUT one with a Top Notch owner in Peter Holt who understands what it is to build AND then maintain a 1st-class operation.
The most impressive player I saw yesterday in the LV Summer League was none other than Rodrigue Beaubois … who is going to be a very good, high end PG in the NBA, and was acquired by Donnie Nelson via the Draft.
Their Top Notch people who make Top Notch decisions scattered across the NBA … and whether certain Raptors fans can agree with my viewpoints on the game are quite irrelevant to me.
As I’ve said to others … Larry Brown picked Derrick Brown as his first 2nd Rounder, while Steve Kerr selected Earl Clark [1st Round], Rod Thorn and Kiki Vandeweghe went with Terrence Williams [1st Round] and Kevin Pritchard chose Dante Cunningham [2nd Round] … there are astute basketball people who in fact AGREE with my basketball judgment, and THAT is plenty enough for me.
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Hopefully you will come back to visit here … as I like, appreciate and enjoy reading what you have to say!
[Believe it or not ... because that's exactly who I am.]
Trust that there is no agenda/act here.
Balance, per se, is not the goal of this blog.
July 11th, 2009 at 8:00 am
[...] khandor’s sports blog » Which franchise made out best from 4 team trade? [...]
July 11th, 2009 at 8:29 am
Mash,
1. It’s a pleasure reading what you wrote in your comment.
2. Reasonable rebuttals, like yours, are a big part of what the internet is about, IMO.
3. Unfortunately … although I can certainly understand your perspective on the matter … I am not in agreement with it.
4.
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It’s kind of unfair, imbalanced, inaccurate to compare a complete Magic roster and an incomplete Raptors roster.
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I did not compare the Magic’s complete roster to the Raptors’ partial roster.
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The trade was made in the way it was so that they could get the person they wanted without trading away their ability to sign other players to improve the team. It was a basic tenet of why they made the trade in the way they did.
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The Raptors could have acquired “the person who they wanted” without making this trade at all … AND still have retained their rights to resign their own free agents.
All they had to do was be willing to exceed the Luxury Tax.
It is strictly from a financial perspective that there might be considered by some folks to be a magical aspect to this trade. Nothing more and nothing less than that.
i.e. Look, Pa … at what I can do … pull a rabbit out of my hat while standing on my head, while drinking a glass of water AND not getting wet. Ta-da!
[please] Don’t be fooled by slight-of-hand, my friend.
Where the Raptors’ W-L ends up as 12 months from today will NOT be the sole determinant of which team “made out the best” from this transaction, IMO … as, contrary to what some narrow-minded individuals might think [not fine peeps like you, of course], I am someone who looks at BOTH the trees AND the forest, at the same time.
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Now regarding Mr. Carter, I tried hard to look at things from your point of view, and it still makes no sense to include him as part of the trade, considering the Raptors’ players-to-be as not. It makes more sense to include the Raptors players to be (since they are absolutely, 100% relative to the trade) as oppose to Vince (since he is not). Try looking at it from the perspective of my movie analogy.
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Then, try looking at it from this perspective, instead.
Do you think that Hedo Turkoglu is a Toronto Raptor today … if Vince Carter is not already a player on the Orlando magic roster?
From my POV, I think that Hedo Turkoglu would have been re-signed by Otis Smith and Dave Twardzik and would still be with their team … in which case this specific trade never goes down at all.
For those who would like to compare the Raptors complete roster at the end of this summer to last season … please take a good long look at the comment I just left above this one, in response to CanuckX.
Even if we pencil in Nesterovic, Delfino, and Barnes this team has not improved by leaps and bound over last year’s crew, based on the calibre of their player personnel … even though they might well win a whole bunch more games this coming season.
It’s a long haul to the top of the NBA, if your goal is winning the Larry O’Brien Trophy … which is what MY GOAL just happens to be for the Toronto Raptors.
5.
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re: Add column/MLE/BAE
Taking into account your point of view of the MLE/BAE, by my estimation, the add column is still incomplete. I haven’t been reading the major media outlets for the MLE/BAE because most of them choose not to go into the details, or believed that there was no way we could have got them anyways.
I actually went to Larry Coon’s FAQ on Salary Cap, you should check it out (http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q20), and the simple thing one needs to know (which I figure you do) is that you need to be over the cap to keep your eligibility for the MLE/BAE (hence, why it’s called an exception, right?). With the sequence of events triggered with signing Turkoglu outright (and renouncing Parker/Marion et al in order to be able to sign him), we would have lost our MLE, because when all was said and done, we would have been under the cap.
So yes, while you are correct that we had the MLE to begin with, the sequence of events would mean we would lose our MLE/BAE - which as I admitted above would have been a screw-up on the part of management.
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You are correct to assume that I am already familiar with Larry Coon’s work.
* At no time was the MLE or the LLE lost by the Raptors.
* Yes, it would have been lost had they actually pulled the trigger on that whole business of renouncing their own free agents in order to sign Turkoglu to begin … in hopes of remaining under the Luxury Tax, which is what this entire nonsense has been about in the first place with this current management team … but since they didn’t ever do this
* At no point should they ever be PRAISED for simply deciding NOT TO SHOOT THEMSELVES IN THE HEAD
All they had to do was be willing to exceed the Luxury Tax … similar to a first class operation like the San Antonio Spurs!!!
6.
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re: Starting Point
Remember, we agreed to sign Turkoglu in principle BEFORE the trade went down. So, whether the player is here or not, we were going to be paying him anyways. His salary will have counted against us before this trade went down. So I am going to dispute your starting point for the Raptors.
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That’s not how it works, exactly.
Whether the player is here, or not, makes a very big difference.
If in doubt of this, just ask the Portland Trail Blazers.
7.
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As for the Magic, I don’t dispute your starting point for them, but again, you’re not comparing apples and apples. What you’ve illustrated is that the Magic, whether or not they have and use this trade exception are still very very well off.
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The Magic are going to be exponentially well off [75-100%?] if they use their Trade Exception … especially in light of their Brandon Bass signing yesterday … and in approximately 50% of the case, if they happen not to use it.
[Note: Those are percentages, I'd be willing to bet into every day of the week and twice on Saturday's ... when most MLB teams have their Aces on the mound. Ask Flux for further clarification, if you're interested.
]
Those who think that the Bass signing shouldn’t now also be considered as “a consequence” of this trade are not looking at the forest in this instance, IMO.
Otis & Dave knew exactly what they were doing when they agreed to this deal with the Raptors, Mavs and Grizzlies.
8.
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That’s like having a 100 M race where one runner starts at 90 M (Orlando), and the other starts at 50 M (Toronto), and they have a trade which takes the first runner to 92 M and the second runner to 75M. Forgetting the actual numbers used here, there’s no doubt that the Raptors improved far greater relative to their position than the Magic did.
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Relative to their position?
The Raptors finished 13th in the Eastern Conference.
They’re not starting at the 50 M mark. They’re still standing at the “Start Line” … while Usain Bolt [Orlando] is approaching the tape, like a freight train, and getting ready to accept his GOLD MEDAL [Larry O'Brien Trophy].
Relative to their position … the Raptors have actually gone in REVERSE, since February 2006.
9.
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I just realized…I think I know exactly where you and I (along with every other Raptors fan) differ and it has come down to semantics. I’ll leave my other arguments up anyways, but here’s what I think.
The title of your blogpost and what you’ve been arguing is which team “made out best” from the trade, and yes, in terms of where they will be come next April, it could arguably be (Cavs) > Mavs > Magic > Raptors > Grizzlies are the best in that order.
BUT
What everyone else was talking about was which team IMPROVED/GAINED the most. And to that, there’s absolutely NO WAY that the Orlando Magic gained more out of the trade than the Raptors did.
None. I hope you can agree with this.
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Respectully, I will choose to disagree with that perception.
Time will be the best judge of that.
Others know now what my position is … which is where the fun really does begin.
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The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
- Anonymous
… and, dessert has always been one of my all-time favourite meals.
PS. It’s a real treat to exchange ideas about the game with you.
July 11th, 2009 at 8:59 am
The main question I wanted you to answer: as a result to the Raptors win incrementally more games than last year than the Magic. That is the proof (or not!). And if the Magic win more incrementally, you will be RIGHT and I’ll be the first to come back to tell you so.
And this is from a guy that thought the last few signings/trades/etc have not been good (Kapono, JO etc..).
July 11th, 2009 at 9:04 am
CanuckX,
re: your 6:44 AM comment
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Vey well said (and supported) Mash.
The article reads as what team IS better NOT what team IMPROVED the most (despite the title).
We’ll make it simple - let’s see what team improves the most year over year - by the delta in win count.
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The only time in my life that I’ve flown “Delta” was once to Atlanta, on my way to Dallas, and then to the “City That never Sleeps” [i.e. LV Nevada].
Worst turbulence, I’ve ever had to deal with.
If the Raptors jump up and win 45 games this coming season and then exit in the 1st Round of the Playoffs; then hover around that mark again for the next little while before plummeting back again to the lower section of the EC standings … in comparison with,
if the Magic win 50+ games this coming season and then advance into the EC Finals, once again … and, perhaps, go even further than that … and, then, remain a Top Dog in the EC standings for the next 5 years, while making multiple appearances in the EC semi-finals,
will you then consider the Raptors to have “made out best” in this transaction with Dallas, Orlando, Memphis and, indirectly, Cleveland?
Although I could always be proven wrong, in this regard, I think that you just might not feel the same way about it then.
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PS. You’re an early riser … and most Early Bird’s usually get The Worm. Enjoy, my friend!
July 11th, 2009 at 9:22 am
CanuckX,
re: your comment at 8:59 AM
If the Raptors would have made no other personnel moves this off-season, except:
1. Trading Kapono for Evans
and,
2. Drafting DeMar DeRozan
there’s a pretty good chance that their W-L record this coming season WILL have been improved, in comparison with last year’s 33 win total.
————
No, IMO … assessing which team “made out best” from this transaction cannot be properly done by just [simply?] comparing the W-L records of the Raptors and the Magic for the 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 seasons.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:04 am
Khan, do you have inside info on AP leaving as a direct result of the trade?
July 11th, 2009 at 11:22 am
I think this is an unfair analysis as you have to look at both the immediate and longer term results of the trade. If you looked solely at the trade from an immediate +/-, you have to give the edge to the Mavs. The Kidd-Marion combo has the potential to be deadly. On the other hand, taking into account cap flexibility as a result of the trade, Raps and the Magic got the best of the deal hands down. The Raps in effect traded Marion (who was walking anyway) for Turk and the ability to sign one high profile starting SG or completely fill out the bench. We also took on two contracts that expire next year (although I wouldn’t be too quick to dismiss Wright as a bench contributor). The Magic have put together an extremely good squad and yet continue to have complete financial flexibility.
As for losing Parker…..that decision had been made well before the trade, frankly it was inevitable. Taking a look at who else we lost (Jake, Joey, etc), these were not huge losses.
Obviously, in terms of w/l, the Raptors will show the largest numerical improvement over last year but this is due to a large extent on the fact that last year we only won 33 games.
July 11th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Khan — I disagree with your assessment of Turk v Marion. While I’m not arguing that Marion is a far worse player than Turk, I will argue that Turk is a far better FIT on this raptors team than Marion. Therefore, I think it’s a big net gain in that respect. Marion at the 3, as you’ve pointed out many times before, is not a great role for him (no quickness advantage, lack of jumper more of a weakness). Turk gives us another ball-handling creator, a department in which we were sorely lacking. So, in the abstract, I don’t disagree with your comparison of those two players; as applied to the raps, however, I think Turk will be far more effective than was Marion.
Also disagree with your equation of Hump and George. With Evans now on the roster, it seems pretty clear Hump would remain glued to the bench, as he did for most of last year. George, however, should provide good size and rebounding at the backup 3 spot. Again, I agree that in the abstract these are two fairly comparable talents, but here the raps exchanged a bench warmer for a guy that could be an important role player and whose skill set at his position complements that of our non-rebounding backup C.
But yes, losing AP hurts. What are the odds Smush Parker gets inked of the summer team to be the backup PG? I’m cringing at the thought, and really hope Roko is ready to assume that role this year…
Nevertheless, a thorough and well-thought-out analysis, as always!
July 11th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
Okay this can only be settled over a beer (or six). Love the Delta reference - I should keep the debate lighter as well.
I do apologize, I haven’t read every single post since - just a few thoughts:
If all the sudden we’re going out 3 or 4 years, then AP is DEFINITELY NOT part of the conversation. He will not be in the NBA by then and that cap room would be clear regardless of what team he’s on. And Vince’s body (age 35 or 36 - 3 years out?) will be near useless at the end of your timeframe and (just out from Berger). Then we have to make 983 estimates on what trades happen 2 yrs forward, who we draft, etc. Cannot be done with any precision.
“The Toronto Raptors are on the verge of signing Pacers restricted free agent Jarrett Jack to an offer sheet, CBSSports.com has learned.
Terms of the deal aren’t yet apparent, but Jack, 25, would be a younger, faster replacement for Anthony Parker, who has agreed to a two-year deal with Cleveland. As a versatile combo guard, Jack would back up point guard Jose Calderon and also see time at the scoring guard spot.”
If you’re STILL going to stay with “losing” AP and its a -, then you absolutely have to add Jarrett Jack (but feel free to say you’re opinion of if this is a good subs for AP or not)
I like debate, but I only like it if we both fight fair.
Marion’s talents are largely based on his athleticism. Both Turk and Marion will definitely regress and likley be sad contracts years 4 and 5 - but Turk’s skills and game will LIKELY (but not definitely) regress less. This is hard to argue - but I have a strong feeling (in speaking with those that know what the Raptors locker room is like) that he may have checked out. He seems like more of a money guy - and would certainly pull an “AI” down the road if you tried to suggest a reduced role. Locker room stuff and generally how good a teammate one may be should factor into decisions.
I did a quick check and noticed you were (relatively) high on Moon’s impact on winning games - in this analysis the Raps can EASILY sign him for cheap. Based on your prior posts, consistency would lead us for you to give this a +. And we’d still have lots of room to sign 2 other quality players.
The OMG comment of the night is “…Donnie Nelson via the Draft .. Top Notch people who make Top Notch decisions..” So soon you forget the Jason Kidd / Devin Harris trade. Good god man.
Steve Kerr =”astute basketball people who in fact AGREE with my basketball judgment, and THAT is plenty enough for me.”
*That is the clincher for me.* See, acquiring O’Neal, Shaquille. And drafting Lopez, Robin.
All the best, CanuckX
July 13th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Raps Fan,
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“Khan, do you have inside info on AP leaving as a direct result of the trade?
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In this instance, no inside info here. Just putting the pieces of the puzzle together in the way that makes the most sense from a basketball perspective.
July 13th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Kevin,
1. Welcome aboard!
2. re: Kevin Says: July 11th, 2009 at 11:22 am
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I think this is an unfair analysis as you have to look at both the immediate and longer term results of the trade.
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Immediate AND long term, simultaneously, is part of what I happen to specialize in doing.
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If you looked solely at the trade from an immediate +/-, you have to give the edge to the Mavs. The Kidd-Marion combo has the potential to be deadly.
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From my POV, it’s both Dallas & Orlando.
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On the other hand, taking into account cap flexibility as a result of the trade, Raps and the Magic got the best of the deal hands down. The Raps in effect traded Marion (who was walking anyway) for Turk and the ability to sign one high profile starting SG or completely fill out the bench. We also took on two contracts that expire next year (although I wouldn’t be too quick to dismiss Wright as a bench contributor). The Magic have put together an extremely good squad and yet continue to have complete financial flexibility.
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If what you want to do is compare how GOOD the rosters are for these three teams, prior to this transaction being made, in the first place, and what they are today, including the players who are likely to be used to complete their respective rosters by the time the regular season kicks off … Are you sure that Toronto has in fact improved the most relative to the other two?
IMO, that is not the case at all … especially, if the report is true that Orlando is now going to match the offer Gortat received from Dallas, in addition to signing Brandon Bass, plus whoever else Otis Smith 7 Dave Smith intend to use to fill out their roster #1-15 [plus the $7.0-10 M Trade Exception which they're sitting on for a rainy day, as the trade deadline approaches this season!].
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As for losing Parker…..that decision had been made well before the trade, frankly it was inevitable.
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Not, at all, inevitable, IMO. According to Bryan Colangelo, he was still “monitoring” the situation with regard to AP, in the aftermath of this trade going down with the “hope” of resigning Mr. Parker, if things broke in the Raptors favour.
Unfortunately, they did not.
Parker made the best decision for himself … but, IMO, it was as a consequence of the Raptors deciding to complete this type of transaction [i.e. the 4-team trade] rather than exercise one of their other options.
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Taking a look at who else we lost (Jake, Joey, etc), these were not huge losses.
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I agree that losses like those are relatively easy to overcome and therefore should not be veiwed as a major set-back.
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Obviously, in terms of w/l, the Raptors will show the largest numerical improvement over last year but this is due to a large extent on the fact that last year we only won 33 games.
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There’s a strong likelihood of this happening.
July 13th, 2009 at 11:27 am
Scott G.,
re: Scott G Says: July 11th, 2009 at 11:40 am
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Khan — I disagree with your assessment of Turk v Marion. While I’m not arguing that Marion is a far worse player than Turk, I will argue that Turk is a far better FIT on this raptors team than Marion. Therefore, I think it’s a big net gain in that respect. Marion at the 3, as you’ve pointed out many times before, is not a great role for him (no quickness advantage, lack of jumper more of a weakness). Turk gives us another ball-handling creator, a department in which we were sorely lacking. So, in the abstract, I don’t disagree with your comparison of those two players; as applied to the raps, however, I think Turk will be far more effective than was Marion.
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As you’ve said and know already … I do not think Marion’s best position is #3/SF.
That said … neither do I think, however, that Hedo Turkoglu - who I happen to like a great deal as a player - is a better #3/SF than Shawn Marion.
IMO, Turkoglu is a different type of #3/SF than Marion, but “different” does not necessarily mean the same as “better”.
Despite the fact that I like Turk’s 4th quarter “clutchness” a whole bunch … and this alone is a good thing to go with players like Chris Bosh and Jose Calderon … I do NOT like that ability to be contained in a player with the other attributes [i.e. "physical" and otherwise] that Hedo brings to the table, at the #3/SF position, in comparison with the other TOP DOGS in the NBA, that are legitimately in the chase for the Larry O’Brien Trophy.
i.e. There was just no way that the Orlando were going to beat the LA Lakers in the NBA FINALS this past year with Hedo Turkoglu as their primary #3/SF vs a Wing Tandem of Kobe Bryant [G-F] & Trevor Ariza [G/F].
What you get with Turkoglu is good memorable clutch performance … but, all too frequently, that clutch performance is exactly what’s necessary at the end of games because of how he and his team has been unable to separate themselves from their opponent at an earlier stage in the game, which is based in part, at least, on what he “gives up” at his position [i.e. #3/SF] during the first 42 minutes of the game, on an intermittent basis.
Then … when you add in an ingredient like Andrea Bargnani [C], beside players like Jose Calderon [PG] and Chris Bosh [PF] … IMO … it becomes a situation that could end up being a real problem for this team, on a night-to-night basis.
[Please Note: Could it work? Yes, it could ... but it is certainly NOT a foregone conclusion that it will, as I have seen very little evidence thus far that suggests Bryan Colangelo and Jay Triano have the type of Basketball Acumen it will take to put these particular pieces to the puzzle together in the right way to create a beautiful "Championship-Winning" picture.]
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Also disagree with your equation of Hump and George. With Evans now on the roster, it seems pretty clear Hump would remain glued to the bench, as he did for most of last year. George, however, should provide good size and rebounding at the backup 3 spot. Again, I agree that in the abstract these are two fairly comparable talents, but here the raps exchanged a bench warmer for a guy that could be an important role player and whose skill set at his position complements that of our non-rebounding backup C.
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At one time, I would have agreed with your take on Devean George, but no more.
IMO, George has played very poorly the last two seasons and seems unlikely to be able to provide what he once did for the LA Lakers.
Hump, who is a marginal NBA player, IMO, has the ability to replace Brandon Bass in the Mavericks line-up, if he happens to be healthy and Rick Carlisle has what it takes to control and then use him effectively.
In a sense, Kris might still be on his way “up” in this League; while Devean is most definitely on his way “down”.
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But yes, losing AP hurts.
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IMO, he is perfect for the Cavaliers, as they enter into this next stage of dvelopment.
It’s going to be interesting to see if Mike Brown knows how to use him to best advantage, or not.
Unfortunately for Cleveland fans, the jury is still very much out for Mike Brown.
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What are the odds Smush Parker gets inked of the summer team to be the backup PG? I’m cringing at the thought, and really hope Roko is ready to assume that role this year…
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Agreed, 100%.
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Nevertheless, a thorough and well-thought-out analysis, as always!
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Always very much appreciated coming from someone like you.
July 13th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
CanuckX,
re: CanuckX Says: July 11th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
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Okay this can only be settled over a beer (or six). Love the Delta reference - I should keep the debate lighter as well.
——————————————————–
Humour is one of Life’s best spices.
——————————————————–
I do apologize, I haven’t read every single post since - just a few thoughts:
If all the sudden we’re going out 3 or 4 years, then AP is DEFINITELY NOT part of the conversation. He will not be in the NBA by then and that cap room would be clear regardless of what team he’s on. And Vince’s body (age 35 or 36 - 3 years out?) will be near useless at the end of your timeframe and (just out from Berger). Then we have to make 983 estimates on what trades happen 2 yrs forward, who we draft, etc. Cannot be done with any precision.
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Difficult to do? Yes, it is.
Impossible to do? No it isn’t; not, IMO.
Each and every decision in Life is inter-connected … with a common String [i.e. Theory].
One of the many Magician’s “tricks” in Life is being able to parce out accurately:
What “fits best” as “a tree”
vs
What “fits best” as “the forest”.
In the end, really it’s just a matter of perspective.
[e.g. the tree in my front yard could very well be seen as a part of a much larger forest.
]
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“The Toronto Raptors are on the verge of signing Pacers restricted free agent Jarrett Jack to an offer sheet, CBSSports.com has learned.
Terms of the deal aren’t yet apparent, but Jack, 25, would be a younger, faster replacement for Anthony Parker, who has agreed to a two-year deal with Cleveland. As a versatile combo guard, Jack would back up point guard Jose Calderon and also see time at the scoring guard spot.”
If you’re STILL going to stay with “losing” AP and its a -, then you absolutely have to add Jarrett Jack (but feel free to say you’re opinion of if this is a good subs for AP or not)
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A. If/when the pacers decide not to match the contract which the Raptors have offerred to Jarret Jack, he, too, would become a factor in the mix involved with this 4-team trade scenario … as a longer term consequence of the deal.
As a replacement for Anthony Parker, I have a different opinion of Mr. Jack than you do … despite the fact that I liked him a great for both Indiana and Portalnd.
i.e. Regardless, he would still be a major upgrade at the Back-up #1/PG position for the Raptors, in comparison with Roko Ukic, IMO.
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I like debate, but I only like it if we both fight fair.
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Many moons ago, I learned a most interesting definition, from a teacher and a friend, concerning the “true” [i.e. most accurate"] meaning of that word. It goes like this:
What fair actually means is … What each of us happens to think is right, from our own perspective.
[In sharp contrast to what MOST people in this world think the word "fair" means to them, try this definition on for size and see how much you like it and if, to you, it actually makes complete and utter sense!
... despite not seeming to when you first look at it the first time. IMO, it's actually a fine piece of Art.]
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Marion’s talents are largely based on his athleticism. Both Turk and Marion will definitely regress and likley be sad contracts years 4 and 5 - but Turk’s skills and game will LIKELY (but not definitely) regress less.
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In contrast to this perception … it’s the opposite that’s “true”.
The best most prolific athletes are in fact the ones who hold their gifts for the longest period of time [not those who depend largely on their technique and understanding of the game to get them through the fire unscathed].
e.g. Michael Jordan, Willie Mays, Muhammed Ali, Jack Nicklaus, Gordie Howe, Walter Peyton, Pele, etc. …
It’s the combination of great physical, mental, emotional and spiritual [etc.] capabilities that give the TOP DOGS of ALL-TIME their defining characteristics.
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This is hard to argue - but I have a strong feeling (in speaking with those that know what the Raptors locker room is like) that he may have checked out. He seems like more of a money guy - and would certainly pull an “AI” down the road if you tried to suggest a reduced role. Locker room stuff and generally how good a teammate one may be should factor into decisions.
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I agree. This type of locker-room stuff is absolutely critical.
In part, it’s related to what I once wrote about an unspoken reason that Chris Bosh should most definitely be starting as the “Center” position for the Raptors rather than Andrea Bargnani, all other things being equal.
Some people get how important this type of “chemistry” stuff is for a team to function at its zenith while others don’t have a clue in this regard [i.e. "it is what it is", from RR].
IMO, you are 100%, re: Shawn Marion, who is a “check-out early” type of player, if his role is reduced.
One of the other Magician’s “tricks” is being able to use these types of players before their best before date has expired.
While Hedo Turkoglu is NOT this sort of player … he also brings a host of other strengths AND weaknesses to the Raptors, in comparison with a player like “The Matrix”.
If forced to chose between the two, however, I would go with Shawn, each & every time … although I, too, could very easily beat a team with Marion on it if I had Turkoglu on mine, if NEED BE.
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I did a quick check and noticed you were (relatively) high on Moon’s impact on winning games - in this analysis the Raps can EASILY sign him for cheap. Based on your prior posts, consistency would lead us for you to give this a +. And we’d still have lots of room to sign 2 other quality players.
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Signing Moon wouldn’t hurt in the least. But, neither would it help a great deal in this current situation.
Moon is a very cost effective player.
Cost effective players lose a great deal of their value, however, if/when you don’t play them.
IMO, Jamario Moon wouldn’t get run with this team … nor, would he bring the sort on intangibles this groups is now in need of, if it is going to succeed in a major way.
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The OMG comment of the night is “…Donnie Nelson via the Draft .. Top Notch people who make Top Notch decisions..” So soon you forget the Jason Kidd / Devin Harris trade. Good god man.
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That’s a tree which is part of the broader forest.
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Steve Kerr =”astute basketball people who in fact AGREE with my basketball judgment, and THAT is plenty enough for me.”
*That is the clincher for me.* See, acquiring O’Neal, Shaquille. And drafting Lopez, Robin.
All the best, CanuckX
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Would you like to make a friendly wager with me that goes like this:
You take Bryan Colangelo.
I take Steve Kerr.
The winner between us is the One who’s guy leads his team [as their GM] to win the NBA championship first. [Note: Doesn't have to be with their current teams, either.]
Loser makes a small donation to the legitimate charitable organization of the winner’s choice.
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All the best, to you, too, sir.
It’s a treat to have you contribute here!
July 13th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Khandor - good and “fair”
answers.
I’ll take that bet - but frankly would bet against both. Too many very strong teams over the next few years: Lakers, Spurs (if healthy), Nuggets, Cavs, Magic, maybe Boston (although one of those old guys is bound to go down) etc.
What’s in common with these teams? Either had the #1 draft pick (or #3 in Camelo’s case in a very strong draft) or is one of the prime destinations (huge draw based on fan support, money, fame, TV etc) for players (LA or Boston).
Spurs (who did have a #1) and Nuggets (#3) >> agree that they’ve also been a result of strong GM and coaches.
Now of course we had a #1 - but it was in one of the worst drafts in recent memory.
We need to either tank and hope to get a #1 (2, 3) in a very good draft or create a winning franschise on which to draw the best over time. I believe [and yes I realize this *opinion* is WRONG - pls use caps to emphasize that I am :)] that we have made very positive strides to move us *towards* the upper third of the league. Exciting? Well no. However, if you’re a team that’s in perpetual rebuild mode (Minny, Indy, Sacramento, etc) you’ll never attract talent or respect. I think the moves will put us into a situation where we enter the conversation down the road when key FAs look for a new home. It won’t happen overnight. But we’re headed the right way. If we get lucky (and I really don’t believe anyone can rate him today with any confidence) DeRozan matures into the player many envision (dream?), we could get there in your timeframe.
Otherwise, trade Bosh, Calderon, stockpile draft picks and hope a little white ball drops in your favour.
All the best Khandor
July 13th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
CanuckX [and others],
1. Here’s the link to the story of:
Orlando’s Decision To Keep Marcin Gortat.
2. Tanking is no guarantee for Winning it All.
3. How you go about building your organization is what determines the level of excellence you can/will achieve.
4. Luck is a significant but relatively small part of the overall equation. Hard work, good planning and a healthy dose of “Basketball Smarts” are much more important elements in the mix.
5. Although Hedo Turkoglu is a good basketball player but, IMO, he will not bring the Raptors significantly closer to winning the NBA championship.
He is but one tree in the forest … and a not particularly special tree at that.
6. The role that DeRozan will NEED to play, if that goal is going to be achieved in the not-too-distant future, is more important than the acquisition of a player like Turkoglu.
7. Trading Jose Calderon is a legitimate option which the team will need to consider down-the-road, if it is going to hold on tightly to Bargnani.
8. Trading Chris Bosh is NOT a legitimate option, in this regard.
Trading CB4 is a default option which actually signals that the team has no hope of winning it all.
9. Trading Andrea Bargnani, on the other hand, SHOULD BE the Option No. 1, if the team is going to move towards becoming a legitimate contender for a NBA Championship.
10. The team would already be in a much better position today if it would have traded down in the 2006 NBA Draft to select either Brandon Roy or Rudy Gay.
July 13th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
Don’t disagree with any of those points.