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13 Responses to “Raptors’ best possible line-up, as of June 30, 2009”

1. TCL Says:
   July 1st, 2009 at 4:37 pm

   Very difficult to argue that CB4 is a natural centre. Bet less than 5% of coaches would agree. That’s a VERY small lineup for a team that was pounded on the boards last year. Don’t have a lot of great shooting on the starting line-up - Deflino’s what a 40% shooter?

2. Toshmon Says:
   July 1st, 2009 at 5:03 pm

   starting delfino at SF and Marion at PF? Bosh as the 5? Bargnani on the Bench? HE AVERAGED 15 PTS a GAME LAST SEASON.

   Im so glad your not a the raptors coach

3. khandor Says:
   July 1st, 2009 at 5:26 pm

   TCL,

   1. Welcome aboard!

   2. It’s not difficult to make that argument, at all.

   i.e. Chris Bosh’s strength … as a player and a person

   3. re: Bet less than 5% of coaches would agree

   I agree with that specific observation.

   There’s a good reason why less than 5% of all coaches [NBA or otherwise] have what it takes to actually win a NBA championship.

   4. The reason the Raptors were pounded on the boards last year had nothing to do with the “size” of their team, as size is not what determines your ability to dominate an opponent on the glass.

   i.e. if it was last year’s team would have been better than it was.

   5. Great shooters are not necessary … when you have a the right combination of players on the floor together, and … if you have enough “good” shooters, and rebounders, and defenders, and scorers, etc., scattered throughout the line-up.

   6. It isn’t just a team’s “starters” that determines its offensive output but:

   i. Players #6-10, as well;
   ii. Its overall Offensive style of play;
   iii. Its Defensive system;
   iv. Its Rebounding system; and,
   v. How its 12 players fit together, in conjunction with the coaching staff.

   7. Designated “shooters” would be Calderon, Parker and Bargnani.

   Designated “drivers” would be Delfino, DeRozan and Ukic.

   Designated “rebounders” would be Marion, Evans, Humphries and Mensah-Bonsu.

   Designated “slashers/cutters” would be Marion, Delfino & DeRozan.

   Bosh would be the Defensive Quarterback and Offensive Hub … defending and playing out of the Low, Mid & High Post positions.

   Bargnani would be Bosh’s sub … and, get additional minutes at the #4/PF position at key junctures in games, depending on the time, score, personal foul, and match-up situations.

   ——————————————————–

   It’s not an ideal line-up, by any stretch of the imagination, but … given the deficiencies which Bryan Colangelo has yet to address effectively in the overall roster … one with which the team could at least compete effectively for a playoff spot this coming season, while playing an exciting/entertaining brand of up-tempo basketball.

4. khandor Says:
   July 1st, 2009 at 5:34 pm

   Toshmon,

   Welcome aboard!

   How many points a player “averaged” last season has nothing to do with the decision to make him a “starter”, or not.

   If in doubt, see the classic cases of Manu Ginobili and Lamar Odom, as but two examples. There are countless others throughout the history of the NBA … at least, when it comes to the good-to-great teams in the league.

   ——————————-

   I’ll guarantee you this much.

   If I had been the Raptors’ coach [or GM] last season … the team would have won more than 33 games.

5. Stince Says:
   July 1st, 2009 at 5:51 pm

   Just curious as to what you’d do when Bosh bolts in the offseason after a season of being frustrated by lack of playing time. 28 minutes per game? We’re talking about a proud NBA player here.

   Also curious as to why you’d throw out such a poor defensive starting lineup. Noone on that perimeter can keep his man in front of him consistently, and there’s no shot blocking behind them. Not to mention that they’d get killed on the boards after just about every perimeter pick and roll switch.

   I agree that Bosh could be a 5 and Marion a 4, but not with Parker and Delfino at the wings and Calderon at the point. You’d better hope that bench produces like you think it would, because they’d be playing catch-up after the first quarter of every game.

6. Raps Fan Says:
   July 1st, 2009 at 6:57 pm

   I think you are the only other person (other then me) who would bring AP back as a starter…I’m thinking about 20 minutes a game for him at this point, agreed?

7. khandor Says:
   July 1st, 2009 at 7:43 pm

   Stince,

   Welcome aboard!

   re: Bosh bolting

   This will be determined by:

   * The number of W’s the team produces
   * The team’s performance in the playoffs [if it makes it that far]
   * The level of trust and confidence he Bosh has in Bryan Colangelo

   not by Bosh’s MPG.

   One thing Bosh might not mind so much about playing less minutes overall is the way that could possibly improve his long term health as a primetime NBA player.

   ————————–

   Just because the goal would be to have Bosh average 28 MPG with Bargnani at @ 20 MPG doesn’t mean that that is how the season would, in fact, play out … given injuries and the performance of Evans, Marion, Humphries, et al.

   ———-

   What makes you think that that line-up would be poorer defensively, in comparison with the other line-ups that are possible with the players on the roster at the moment?

   That group of 5 players may be the best unit that the Raptors are capable of putting on the floor all season to defend against Pick & Roll/Pop scenarios.

   ———-

   re: keeping their defensive in front of them

   Those are the best 5 players on this roster at keeping their individual checks in front of them.

   If they are deficient vs the players on opponent teams then that falls on Bryan Colangelo [GM].

   ———-

   re: shot blocking

   Bosh, at Center, is the best shot blocker on the roster.

   ———-

   re: playing catch-up after the first quarter

   An irrelevant observation on your part … since you have no idea at what point yet:

   * At what point substitutions would be made
   * What the 2nd Unit would look like
   * What style of play would be used for each unit on the floor together
   * etc.

   ———-

   If a team with a roster like one one tries to ride the coattails of its 5 best players getting maximum floor time together … it will lose a lot of games, burn out those best players, and fail to make the playoffs, again.

   Sharing the load is the best way for a team with this type of make-up to proceed.

8. khandor Says:
   July 1st, 2009 at 7:45 pm

   Raps Fan,

   You know the way I think by now.

   If I had my druthers, I’d like nothing better than to bring AP off the bench, as the main Back-up at the PG & OG positions.

   However, that does not look like the best way to proceed … if the roster looks like this on Day 1 of the regular season.

   20 MPG would seem to be about right for AP, given the remainder of the roster.

   At the correct price, for those minutes, as the lead-in to DeRozan’s development as a key player for the Raptors for the next 10 seasons [hopefully?] … AP is a great investment, in my book.

9. Stince Says:
   July 1st, 2009 at 10:07 pm

   I think you and I differ in our assumption of what constitutes NBA basketball. You are, in my opinion, too focused on the role of the pick and roll/pop game. While I don’t deny that it comprises an enormous part of any team’s offense, it goes right out the window when a team has an isolation matchup that it can take advantage of by using players with a physical advantage. And in today’s NBA that means either bruising post play (though there’s less and less of this every year), creative wing play or quickness at the point.

   Let’s be honest. Bosh cannot guard 75% of the 5s in this league in isolation play without a double team. Ditto for Marion and any 4 with a post game. Now I’m guessing you’ve watched enough Raptors ball over the last few years to realize that Parker, Calderon and (to a lesser extent) Delfino are terrible at carrying out rotation assignments due to their lack of foot speed and athleticism (and in Parker’s case, the fact that he loves to give random double teams and provide help when none is needed, often outside of whatever scheme the team happens to be running, especially if it leaves a shooter open in the corner). So there’s your first problem: any team with size and skill in the post will eat that lineup alive.

   The one thing Bosh DOES do well, as you’ve pointed out, is defend the pick and roll. The problem is that with Calderon, Parker and Delfino on the perimeter, no pick and roll is needed to create penetration and quality shots/mismatches. Any one of these three can be broken down individually off of the dribble by a reasonably quick offensive player, necessitating help form the defense. Again, the Raps have been very poor in their defensive rotations over the last, well, long time. So putting 3 poor to average individual defenders who don’t recover quickly to help out on the perimeter together just seems optimistic.

   Don’t get me wrong, I understand your points about sharing the load, and about your best pick and roll defense (and we both know this is where you have an issue, with Bargs being exposed in any pick and roll situation). It just seems to me that going with a smaller lineup would work best in the 2nd unit, as any good team will take immediate advantage of the many individual mismatches your proposed best lineup presents. At least by playing Marion at the 3 and Delfino at the 2 to start the game you can minimize the need to switch and rotate on isolation plays, then make substitutions based on which plays the opposing team is trying to beat you with.

   I suppose to me it’s a case of the lesser of two evils.

   Finally, it seems a touch ironic to me that you would consider my comment about playing catch-up after the first quarter irrelevant on the grounds that substitution patterns and the play of the 2nd unit can’t be determined by your post. Because if that’s the case, then isn’t an article devoted to what you consider to be the best possible starting lineup therefor irrelevant, given that you yourself haven’t made clear how those same substitutions patterns and second unit play would make up for the shortcomings of the first unit?

10. khandor Says:
    July 1st, 2009 at 10:49 pm

    Stince,

    Instead of dissecting your comment in one fell swoop, which would be too difficult for others to comprehend properly, let’s go about this in a slightly different way this time, okay?

    POINT ONE - Understanding the role of Low Post isolation play in basketball and how a good team in the NBA can deal effectively with mismatches in this area of the game

    Have you ever heard of the saying that goes like this:

    “Mismatches do not kill you. Open shots do.”

    What this saying means is that a mismatch, by itself … particularly by a player in the Low Post, where the bulk of intentional mismatches actually occur … are extremely easy to cope with effectively by a team and a coach who is prepared to “Do something to counteract the effect of the mismatch, in the first place,” especially if that defensive team does not have any overtly smallish players on the floor, as part of their regular rotation [i.e. @ 6-0 tall or under].

    * Early double teams of the perimeter player with the ball [i.e. the passer]
    * Establishing a Front vs the offensive player
    * Establishing a Front vs the offensive player with early back-side help
    * Using a variety of “cover downs” and “double teams” on the posting player after he has caught the ball in the Low Post
    * Playing behind the player in the Low Post while “rooting” him off his sweet spot
    * Playing behind the player in the Low Post while “rooting” him off his sweet spot AND sending a 2nd defender early to deter the initial entry pass

    etc., etc., etc.

    1. Dealing effectively with Post-Up mismatches is not a major concern for a coach who knows what he’s doing in the NBA game.

    2. Now, if a team has a player like TJ Ford at the PG spot then, it exposes itself to this situation way too much and it becomes a hazard to the health of that team.

    Calderon is 6-3
    Parker is 6-6
    Delfino is 6-6
    Marion is 6-7
    Bosh is 6-10

    There are few, if any Low, Post mismatches which that specific unit of 5 could not deal with effectively using a combination of those techniques listed above.

    It seems to me as though you might not understand how the defense needs to work at the NBA level to STOP this play from killing a team.

    If you did … then you wouldn’t say what you said about the supposed advantages any opponent would have against the Raptors when they played that specific 5-Man Unit together vs Low Post isolation plays, given the size of those defenders and their respective levels of strength, quickness and rebounding ability.

    Once you understand this … or agree to disagree about it … then, we can proceed to POINT TWO.

    Let me know that you’re ready to move on by responding with another comment in this thread.

    Until I hear back from you, there’s really no point in me discussing the rest of your initial comment any further.

    e.g. Let’s be perfectly honest … The fact is Chris Bosh can effectively guard almost every Center in the League, in a 1-v-1 situation, if he’s allowed to play behind his check and “root him” off his sweet spot. Unless you realize this fundamental of the game, it’s a waste of time discussing the rest of your comment.

11. Stince Says:
    July 2nd, 2009 at 6:54 am

    I understand your point. But I certainly will have to agree to disagree. What I counter with is by asking you whether you have seen any evidence of your lineup being able to execute such a defensive scheme effectively in the past.

    Certainly it is open shots that kill you, but open shots are created primarily by isolation play and mismatches (of which the pick and roll/pop is only one way of producing). Yes, you can gameplan and scheme all you want, but your stance seems to be that you expect your lineup to be able to effectively carry out a top-notch defensive gameplan. To say that I am skeptical is an understatement. You have the luxury of theorizing and not actually having to trot out said players and watch them bungle assignment after assignment, as they have done for the past X years under both Triano and Mitchell. You’ll notice that,

    * Early double teams of the perimeter player with the ball [i.e. the passer]
    * Establishing a Front vs the offensive player
    * Establishing a Front vs the offensive player with early back-side help
    * Using a variety of “cover downs” and “double teams” on the posting player after he has caught the ball in the Low Post
    * Playing behind the player in the Low Post while “rooting” him off his sweet spot
    * Playing behind the player in the Low Post while “rooting” him off his sweet spot AND sending a 2nd defender early to deter the initial entry pass

    all require a defense that is ‘on a string’, with a good deal of rotation and communication necessary. Again, have we seen evidence of this Raptors team being able to communicate and execute defensive assignments such as these in the past, even when said scheme is in place for an entire season with little change? In my opinion we have not. All of these require a great deal of scrambling and rotating from the wing players, whose foot speed and athleticism I have already addressed.

    My take is that the team needs to play the players on which it has staked it’s future and that they will need to improve over the course of the season (for better or worse with Bargnani isn’t the issue being discussed - I think we can both agree that Bargs will play a lot of minutes this year simply because Colangelo realizes that as an asset, Bargs needs to have SOME value at the end of the year for this team to move forward). I suppose what it comes down to is that you are working in a theoretical best-case scenario that focuses solely on wins and losses, while I prefer to think of this season (and beyond) and the need for long-term growth as the only solution to a naturally poor defensive team. Perhaps that is more the root of our disagreement.

    As to your point about Bosh rooting players off of the spot - again, have we seen evidence of his being able to do this in the past? He gives up significant weight and strength to most 5s, and any coach worth his salt can simply run a weak-side screen followed by a dive across the lane to establish deep post position (and this is obviously only one option, but we’ve seen SVG use it with Howard over and over). It is a foul to root players off of the spot by undercutting them with your legs, which is Bosh’s only hope for keeping someone to whom he’s giving up 40+ pounds in front of him.

    Lastly, I want to make one thing clear that I should have mentioned in my original post but that tends to go unstated in my comments. I measure success based not on regular season wins and losses, but on the ability of a team to advance into the playoffs. My arguments tend to be geared toward measuring the Raptors against good teams and not average ones. To me it matters not whether your team wins 50 games, but rather whether or not you advance past the first round. Specifically, it matters more to me whether your best lineup can match up against Cleveland, Orlando and Boston than it does Charlotte and Indiana. I realized after writing this response that to some degree you and I may be arguing apples and oranges due to this unstated personal slant (and this is again why I feel that development over an entire season must trump relying entirely on a defensive scheme given the players at hand).

12. Linkage for Jun 30 8pm to Jul 2 8am - Raptors Republic Says:
    July 2nd, 2009 at 8:01 am

    [...] khandor’s sports blog » Raptors’ best possible line-up, as of June 30, 2008 [...]

13. khandor Says:
    July 2nd, 2009 at 8:45 am

    Stince,

    Thanks for your extremely cogent comment in reply.

    It’s a treat to exchange ideas on hoops with someone who expresses their ideas in this way.

    [i.e. it's one of the things I enjoy most of all about dialoguing with highly knowledgeable individuals like Dave and Scott G.]

    —————————

    To the crux of your reply …

    1. If you’ve taken the time to read what I’ve written here and elsewhere, you should know already that advancing in the PLAYOFFS is what matter most to me as well.

    2. Yes, I have seen evidence that the players on the list which I’ve provided above have the capacity to succeed when playing within a well-conceived, properly taught and executed defensive scheme, like those suggested in my comment above.

    3. Foot speed, per se, is not what determines a player’s effectiveness on the defensive end of the floor … mental and physical quickness are what deternie that, in conjunction with emotional stability and a commitment to the Team Concept.

    4. The mostly poor defenders who the Raptors have had these past few seasons are not to be found amongst the players I have listed above. The only one who remains is, in fact, Andrea Bargnani.

    5. If you’ve read what I’ve written before … you would know that this specific saying happens to be MINE [and no one else's]:

    “Mismatches lead to the open shots that kill a team.” - My Name By Birth

    6. When you begin to deal with “strings” you begin to talk my language, sir.

    IT REPRESENTS THE WAY TO PLAY THE GAME PROPERLY AT THIS LEVEL OF COMPETION. Period.

    7. The only player listed above who would have any difficulty at all “scrambling and rotating” in concert with their teammates … happens to be Andrea Bargnani, whose role would be minimized [and emphasized] effectively by using him as a replacement for Chris Bosh [and a part-time sub at the 34/PF spot]. Offensive specialists like him … who kill their own team on defense, need to be used in specific situations and NOT as a full-time major minute “starter” for a team that intends on going far in the Playoffs. He is MOST VALUABLE in that specific role.

    8. You DO NOT develop players like DeRozan and Bargnani by putting them into situations that they are NOT ready to succeed in. That’s a recipe for long term adequacy which never shifts into Long Term Dominance/Excellence. When a player with a high degree of skill shows a coach every day in practice that he is ready to perform at a requisite level of execution … then and only then does HIS PERFORMANCE WARRANT getting major minutes on the floor in an actual NBA game. For a prime-time player … THAT performance needs to be in ALL THREE phases of the game, i.e. Offense [Team & Individual], Defense [Team & Individual], and Rebounding.

    You bring a young pup like DeRozan along slowly … like the Lakers did with Kobe Bryant … not by throwing him into the Deep End without a life jacket in sight.

    DeRozan is NOWHERE near as ready to step right in as was someone like LeBron James. It’s a major error in judgment to think that he is.

    Until Bargnani shows in practice that he is capable of defending vs the P & R/P series effectively … he is a MAJOR liability on the defensive end of the floor, because unlike during his first season in the league, every opponent now knows just how weak he is this specific area of the game and is now targeting him mercilessly with this most basic of NBA set plays wheneever he is on the floor to rip the Raptors’ team defense to shreds.

    9. When Bosh is allowed to “root his check off the block” by playing behind his man on the line of the ball he is plenty strong and tough and agile enough to hold his ground 1-v-1 against every Center in the League except Shaq and Yao Ming.

    Where he gets into trouble, specifically … as do plenty of other smaller Centers in the L … is when he is asked by his coaching staff to “work into a Half-side Front position” [either on the Low or High Side]. This is a ridiculously bad defensive technique which has little to no place in the NBA game, if your team aspires to be a Championship Contending Outfit.

    This is not high school basketball.
    This is not college basketball.

    The Centers in this League are ABSOLUTELY HUGE, if you choose not to play directly behind them, with an arm extended from behind to deter the entry pass to one side of the offensive player … while attempting to “root that player off his sweet spot” and then attack him with an assortment of traps and well-timed and precise double teams.

    Bosh is 6-10 and 230. He is far from being a weakling. If he can get to 250 … he is perfectly capable of playing the remainder of his NBA career at the Center position, in a similar way to Pau Gasol [who did a terrific job checking Dwight Howard in the NBA FINALS this year].

    It’s the technique which Bosh has been asked to use way too frequently that has exposed him to ridicule thus far in his NBA career as a perceived-to-be less-than-adequate Low Post Defender … that’s all.

    10. In the NBA it is not a foul to root a player off the Low Block by using your legs, hips, forearm [arm-bar] and upper torso … if you are taught how to do it properly.

    ——————————————————–

    If you’d now like me to move on to POINT TWO just let me know.

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