Raptors better with Chris Bosh at Center vs Bobcats

FINAL SCORE: Raptors 86, BOBCATS 112
Complete Game Info

————————————————————

It’s becoming comical to see and track just How MUCH BETTER the Raptors are when [1] Chris Bosh plays the Center position, in comparison with [2] the Power Forward position, or [3] when he’s not in the game at all.

Yet, certain fan web sites and on-line voices are now maintaining that the team MIGHT be better off long term if they trade their Captain and continue to re-build their squad around Andrea Bargnani, as their Cornerstone Player … either, as their Starting Center or their Starting Power Forward.

In reality, this option makes little sense … based on the in-game production of these two players, the roles they fulfil for this team and the way in which the Raptors perform when each of them is on the court, either, separately or together.

If you look at the following Substitution Chart, you should be able to see:

 

SUBSTITUTION CHART

Raptors at BOBCATS

Mon Mar 16 2009

Time

Team

1

2

3

4

5

Start

End

Diff

Q1

12:00

Tor

Calderon

Parker

Marion√

Bosh√

Bargnani

0

0

10

6

+4

CHA

Felton

Bell

Wallace

Diaw

Okafor

 

Q1

07:56

Tor

Ukic

Parker

Marion√

Bosh√

Bargnani

10

6

12

10

-2

CHA

 

 

 

 

 

 05:23 Time-out [F]: CHA

Q1

05:23

Tor

Ukic

Kapono

Marion√

Bosh√

Bargnani

12

10

12

11

-1

CHA

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q1

05:11

Tor

Ukic

Kapono

Marion√

MBonsu

Bargnani

12

11

12

15

-4

CHA

 

 

 

 

 

 04:12 Time-out [F]: Tor

Q1

04:12

Tor

Parker

Kapono

Marion√

MBonsu√

Bargnani

12

15

16

19

0

CHA

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q1

02:46

Tor

 

 

16

19

22

27

-2

CHA

Felton

Bell

Wallace

Diaw

Diop

 

Q2

12:00

Tor

Parker√

Kapono

Graham

MBonsu√

Bosh

22

27

24

27

+2

CHA

Felton

Bell

Wallace

Diaw

Diop

 

Q2

11:21

Tor

 

24

27

26

27

+2

CHA

Felton

Bell

Radmanovic

Diaw

Diop

 

Q2

10:42

Tor

 

26

27

26

29

-2

CHA

Felton

Bell

Wallace

Radmanovic

Diop

 

Q2

10:11

Tor

 

26

29

26

32

-3

CHA

Augustin

Martin

Wallace

Radmanovic

Diop

 

Q2

09:39

Tor

Calderon

Parker

Graham√

MBonsu√

Bosh√

26

32

32

40

-2

CHA

 

 

 

 

 

 06:34 Time-out [F]: Official

Q2

06:34

Tor

 

 

32

40

34

42

0

CHA

Augustin

Martin

Wallace

Radmanovic

Mohammed

 

Q2

05:31

Tor

Calderon

Parker

Graham√

Bosh

Bargnani

34

42

36

42

+2

CHA

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q2

05:22

Tor

Calderon

Parker

Marion

Bosh√

Bargnani

36

42

36

44

-2

CHA

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q2

04:57

Tor

 

 

 

36

44

41

48

+1

CHA

Felton

Augustin

Wallace

Radmanovic

Mohammed

 

Q2

03:28

Tor

 

 

 

41

48

43

55

-5

CHA

Felton

Augustin

Wallace

Radmanovic

Howard

 02:57 Time-out [F]: Tor

Q2

00:25

Tor

Graham

Kapono

Marion√

MBonsu

Bargnani

43

55

43

57

-2

CHA

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q3

12:00

Tor

Calderom

Parker

Marion√

Bosh

Bargnani

43

57

53

63

+4

CHA

Felton

Bell

Wallace

Diaw

Okafor

 

Q3

07:49

Tor

 

 

 

53

63

53

69

-6

CHA

Felton

Bell

Wallace

Radmanovic

Okafor

 06:38 Time-out [F] Tor

Q3

06:38

Tor

Calderon

Kapono

Graham

Bosh√

Bargnani

53

69

56

73

-1

CHA

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q3

04:59

Tor

Calderon

Kapono

Graham√

MBonsu

Bosh

56

73

64

80

+1

CHA

 

 

 

 

 

 02:37 Time-out [S]: CHA

Q3

02:37

Tor

 

 

64

80

66

83

-1

CHA

Augustin

Bell

Wallace

Radmanovic

Okafor

 

Q3

02:00

Tor

Ukic

Kapono

Graham√

MBonsu√

Bosh√

66

83

68

85

0

CHA

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q3

01:14

Tor

 

 

68

85

70

85

+2

CHA

Augustin

Martin

Wallace

Radmanovic

Okafor

 

Q3

00:37

Tor

Ukic

Kapono

Graham√

MBonsu√

Bargnani

70

85

72

89

-2

CHA

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q4

12:00

Tor

Calderon

Parker

Marion

Bosh

Bargnani

72

89

80

100

-3

CHA

Augustin

Martin

Diaw

Radmanovic

Okafor

 

Q4

06:35

Tor

 

 

 

80

100

84

105

-1

CHA

Felton

Bell

Wallace

Radmanovic

Diaw

 05:50 Time-out [F]: CHA

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 02:52 Time-out [F]: Tor

Q4

02:52

Tor

Ukic

Kapono

Graham

MBonsu

O’Bryant

84

105

86

112

-5

CHA

Felton

Martin

Radmanovic

May

Diop

 

LEGEND:

Bold – Player subbed into game; Italics – Played shifted to new position; √ – Solid Rebounder.

 

* How the Raptors played:

1. With Bosh at Center – 10:51, -1
2. With Bosh at Power Forward – 28:04, -10
3. Without Bosh on the floor at all – 09:05, -15

4. With Bargnani at Center – 34:17, -20
5. With Bargnani at Center AND Bosh at Power Forward – see 2 [above]
6. Without Bargnani on the floor at all – 13:43, -6  

* How the Raptors played with 3 or more Solid Rebounders on the floor, together, in comparison with only 1 or 2 Solid Rebounders on together:

3 Solid Rebounders, -5

PG/Parker + SF/Graham + PF/Mensah-Bonsu + C/Bosh = -1
PG/Parker + SF/Marion + PF/Mensah-Bonsu = -2
SF/Graham + PF/Mensah-Bonsu + C/Bosh = 0
PG/Graham + SF/Marion + PF/Mensah-Bonsu = -2

versus

1 or 2 Solid Rebounders, -21

SF/Marion + PF/Bosh = -11
SF?Marion + PF/Mensah-Bonsu = -4
SF/Graham + PF/Bosh = +1
SF/Graham + PF/Mensah-Bonsu = -7

Moving forward from here, with a 24-44/.353 W-L record, the best available option for the Raptors DOES NOT involve trading Chris Bosh [OPTION ONE] and using Andrea Bargnani as their Cornerstone Player, despite what many delusional Raptors fans and certain other NBA observers might think … but, rather:

OPTION TWO

I. Using Chris Bosh as their Main-Frame Center;

II. Using Shawn Marion as their Starting Power Forward AND Back-up Small Forward;

III. Using Joey Graham as their Main-frame Small Forward;

IV. Using Anthony Parker as their Starting Off Guard AND Back-up Point Guard;

V. Using Jose Calderon as their Main-Frame Point Guard;

VI. Using Andrea Bargnani as their Back-up Center;

VII. Using Pops Mensah-Bonsu as their Back-up Power Forward;

VIII. Using Jason Kapono as their Back-up Off Guard [or Back-up Small Forward];

IX. Not using any of their other players, except in emergency situations.

X. Adding a solid young, athletic, multi-dimensional player in the 2009 NBA Lottery;

XII. Re-signing Shawn Marion to a manageable contract extension, or signing a comparable or better UFA [e.g. Hedo Turkoglu]; 

XIII. Solidifying their Head Coach position;

XIV. Making the 2009-2010 Eastern Conference Playoffs; and,

XV. Re-signing Chris Bosh to a Maximum Contract Extension.

OPTION THREE

I. Trading Andrea Bargnani … in exchange for a more multi-dimensional “No. 2″ player, e.g. like Rudy Gay [OG/SF/PF];

II. See the remainder of OPTION TWO [above].

Rebounding, Team Defense and Shared Team Offense are the 3 main phases of Basketball and it is extremely difficult … if not impossible … for a team to function at a High End level with a Main-Frame Center that is not at least an above-average performer in the first two categories because of the other subsequent adjustments THIS FACT alone forces upon the other four [4] positions on your team, on a possession-by-possession basis.

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43 Responses to “Raptors better with Chris Bosh at Center vs Bobcats”

  1. Raps Fan Says:

    khan, i cant speak on behalf of everyone at rr, but for me as far as bosh goes:

    the first choice is to resign bosh. my only fear is that he will get the contract, then become a poison pill wanting to be moved because the team wont be as good as he wants. if bc can tide him over with a competitive team on the floor around him, it might work out with a solid forward moving plan, he may not become a problem in the locker room.

    if rr sources are accurate, and he has privately asked for a trade, then what do we do? keep him even though he doesn’t want to be here? contrary to what stoudemire was fetching on the open market, i believe we could get a lot more because bosh is much more of a complete player then amare. a logical trading partner would be portland (combo of aldridge, fernandez, outlaw, webster, blake, rodriguez, picks and cash) would make this team much deeper, and give us a group of young players to build around.

    we have bet and lost mightily on mcgrady and carter in the past. kept them around when it was clear they wanted out and got NOTHING in return. this franchise needs to avoid losing its stars without replacing them with something valuable.

  2. AltRaps Says:

    Fantastic job.

    I, again only speaking for myself, hope we re-sign Bosh. I am also willing to bet he would leave money on the table, if needed, to bring in a solid supporting piece to the Raptors puzzle.

    I think the upcoming labour talks will also play a part in any early decisions. I can’t fathom many agents telling their clients to commit early to a long term deal. This, of course, will play into the hands of all the “sky is falling” skeptics, but what can you do.

    I firmly believe CB has approached management requesting a long term plan and more of a voice in what is going on. They would be silly not to listen.

  3. Mauro Says:

    khandoor, I think everybody and their mother wish that CB4 will stay.
    If CB4 wish to stay. Big IF.
    Also you know that the Cap limits and the money locked in not so useful contract/player will prevent us to take more than one good player during the summer.
    The main difference between my view and your, if I understood it well, is that I want AB & CB4 playing together and you believe that AB has to go and we will be able to find a cheap center or a good PF and having Cb4 playing C.

    Make me a favour.
    Analize in the same way next game with Charlotte.
    As we are going to win that one(bet on it), I would like to see why

  4. Scott G Says:

    That last paragraph is as succinctly stated an indictment of Bargs as I’ve seen. Well put!

  5. khandor Says:

    Raps Fan,

    re: Bosh as Poison Pill

    IMO, nothing in his character suggests that this is something to fear from this young man.

    When he says that he’s not “frustrated” this season … others who seem to have a different agenda then take THAT in the wrong way.

    The perseverance and “next-game-please” attitude which Bosh is displaying this season SHOULD be commended and is exactly the type of professionalism that an A-List team in the NBA SHOULD want to see from its franchise player.

    IMO, right now, there is no one in this world more proud of Chris Bosh than Sam Mitchell. As a former hard-nosed player in the NBA, who helped both Kevin Garnett and Chris Bosh cut their teeth in this league … how Bosh has conducted himself so far this season is in fact remarkable, given the amount of B.S. he has had to endure … especially from the so-called fans of this team.

    Those who fail to see just how much BETTER Chris Bosh is, as an elite level basketball player, in comparison with Andrea Bargnani … are simply not very sophisticated NBA people.

    IMO, if you took a poll of GM’s around the league today the vote would be 30-0, in favour of Chris Bosh … and, yet, some so-called Raptors fans would prefer to see the team trade Bosh and build around Bargnani.

    These people are simply delusional.

    Nuff said.

    ——————————————————–

    re: the chances of re-signing Bosh

    IMO … what should have been a no-brainer is no more … unfortunately, on account of just how badly Bryan Colangelo has messed this team up this season and the way in which a large number of so-called Raptors fans have booed Chris Bosh during Raptors’ home games.

    This doesn’t mean that it’s impossible for the team to re-sign Chris, only that’s it now going to be more difficult than it would have been if neither of these two things had happened this season.

    First. What franchise player … who is right in his head … would actually WANT to remain in a city that is booing his best efforts, personally?

    Second. What franchise player … who is right in his head … would actually WANT to remain with a team that has a Pres/GM who legitimately thought that “this is the best Raptors’ team assembled thus far, on paper”, during the pre-season?

    with

    Will Solomon
    Hassan Adams
    Nathan Jawai
    Roko Ukic, and
    Jason Kapono

    on the roster,

    and, then, maintained THAT position in the midst of a regular season in which:

    * He fired the Head Coach, with a 8-9 W-L record
    * Reclaimed Jake Voskuhl off the scrap heap
    * Traded Jermaine O’Neal + Jamario Moon + a lottery protected 1st Rd Draft Pick in exchange for Shawn Marion + Marcus Banks + $3.0 M [for a future Draft Pick]
    * While amassing an overall 24-44/.353 W-L record to-date?

    IMO, the biggest obstacle the Raptors face to re-signing Chris Bosh is the shoddy work done so far by Bryan Colangelo.

    That said …

    * Signing Pops Mensah-Bonsu was a solid move [in fact, a typical low-level player signing by Colangelo, as noted previously by David Berri];

    * The roster remains somewhat flexible with several decisions still to be this off-season, re: Parker, Graham, Delfino & Marion, in terms of actual personnel and available $$$

    * Another Lottery Pick is now on the way

    * No other team can offer Bosh more $$$ than the Raptors

    If Bosh CHOOSES not to re-sign with the Raptors, after opting out next summer, then that falls squarely on the shoulders of Bryan Colangelo.

    ——————————————————–

    re: if rr sources are accurate, and he has privately asked for a trade, then what do we do? keep him even though he doesn’t want to be here?

    Yes … IMO … that’s precisely what a Top Notch GM would do.

    ——————————————————–

    re: a logical trading partner would be portland (combo of aldridge, fernandez, outlaw, webster, blake, rodriguez, picks and cash) would make this team much deeper, and give us a group of young players to build around.

    1. IMO, Portland would be making a huge mistake to give up some combination of those players in exchange for Chris Bosh.

    2. IMO, Kevin Pritchard is too smart to make that mistake.

    3. IMO, if that trade does happen, the Raptors are really not that much further ahead … as they are still stuck with using Andrea Bargnani as their Main-Frame #5/C.

    The problem with this team IS NOT Chris Bosh or Jose Calderon. The main problem, right now … not before when they had JO … is Andrea Bargnani, their Starting Center.

    This will NOT change unless they either:

    A. Trade him; or,

    B. Shift him into the Back-up Center position [in which case the main problem then becomes HIS status as a former No. 1, overall, Draft Pick ... and very real possibility of Bargnani becoming a POISON PILL in the locker-room!!! :-( , due to unfulfilled expectations]

    ——————————————————–

    re: we have bet and lost mightily on mcgrady and carter in the past. kept them around when it was clear they wanted out and got NOTHING in return. this franchise needs to avoid losing its stars without replacing them with something valuable.

    IMO … this franchise NEEDS to avoid losing another of its star players. PERIOD.

    IMO, the Raptors mishandled both McGrady’s and Carter’s situations.

    McGrady wasn’t making $15.0/yr when he walked away. T-Mac had also been mis-treated by a former Raptors’ head coach and did not wish to play 2nd fiddle to Wince Carter, who was ensconced in Toronto at that time. That’s not close to Bosh’s situation.

    Carter was run out of town by the fans, due to the ineptitude of Rob Babcock … who should NOT have been hired by MLSE, in the first place … who should not have hired Sam Mitchell as his coach, and should not have traded Wince when he made it clear that he no longer wanted to play for the Raptors. A Top Notch GM would have handled that entire situation very differently.

    How Bryan Colangelo chooses to handle Bosh’s situation will say a lot about the calibre of GM he really is, IMO.

    So far, he isn’t off to a good start.

    IMO … NBA teams:

    I. Bet & Lose when they make BAD trades,
    II. Not when they [i] re-sign their own UFA, or,
    III. When they fail to do just that and their best players choose to walk away, instead, with millions of dollars still left on the table.

    From Situation III, a franchise still has the financial wherewithal to rebound rather quickly.

    It’s Situation I, however, that absolutely kills a team.

  6. khandor Says:

    AltRaps,

    The kind words are much appreciated. :-)

  7. khandor Says:

    Scott G.,

    While other sites and certain other so-called Raptors fans might think it fitting that there are not thousands of daily comments on my blog, know that I do not share this opinion.

    In my book … it’s the actual Quality of something which matters the most in Life, not the quantity. :-)

    Always a pleasure to hear from you, and others like Flux, Raps Fan, AltRaps, Dave, etc.

  8. khandor Says:

    Mauro,

    Welcome aboard! :-)

    First. I don’t think that “everybody” actually does want to see Chris Bosh stay with the Raptors. There are plenty of so-called Raptors fans who think that the team would be much better off without Bosh at all … because, in their mind, he is not a “franchise player”.

    Until those so-called fans actually take the time to visit here, however, as you’ve now done, it serves no productive purpose to mention them by name in this space.

    Second. I’d encourage you to look around this blog on your own. If you do, then you should be able to see other entries which cover Raptors’ victories, and attempt to explain the underlying reasons for those specific outcomes.

    Heading toward the next game vs Charlottle … like you … I, too, expect the Raptors to play much better than they did yesterday and would not be surprised at all to see them emerge with a W.

    In fact … if they follow some of the recommendations which have been dispensed in this space, I would almost go so far as to guarantee it. Almost. ;-)

    It’s a complex situation with this team. There is just enough talent on-hand to be almost very good, if it’s handled properly, from a management and coaching persepctive … but, also, just enough talent to, in fact, not be very good at all, if it isn’t handled in the right way.

    If I have the time to do it … you should be able to see a similar review of the next Raptors/Bobcats game in this space, regardless what the outcome happens to be.

    What I do here, doesn’t depend on Wins and Losses at all.

    [PS. It's what I do in other spaces that's entirely dependant on THAT. ;-) ]

  9. Raps Fan Says:

    you are absolutely correct in saying bosh hasn’t shown a poison pill-type attitude so far. however, this franchise has not been able to take care of it’s stars in the past, and nothing suggest to me that-that behavior has been ratified at the management ranks.

    the portland scenario is highly unlikely to happen since pritchard is a solid gm, but i was just illustrating what it would take for ME to trade bosh away if i was in BC’s shoes. as far as your point 3), i think they would be a little further ahead in three categories (cap flexibility and team depth and defense). would the impact that bosh makes be replaced with them, not at all.

    i cant help but think of that rumored bargnani for josh howard rumour, and how we should have probably made it, had it been on the table. with bargnani’s solid play the last few months, i doubt bc trades him at all.

    as far as the level of commenting on your site goes, i much prefer the discussions here then the ones in my own house :)

  10. Raps Fan Says:

    although i do appreciate the ones in my house ;) and truth be told, they have gotten better over the last while.

  11. khandor Says:

    Raps Fan,

    Sincere, thanks, again.

    re: what’s happening at your house

    I agree. With the new addition of solid contributors like “Seeten”, and the comedic genius of someone like “Mike D”, it has improved recently.

    The market that RR caters to is meaningful in its own right, and you guys are doing a great job in providing that space for Raptors fans … in a way which is refreshingly different than, for example, the fascists at a place like RealGM.com, who “lock” threads all over the place and ban people from their site, or Raptorblog.com that slanders other bloggers without justification.

    ——————————————————–

    re: cap flexibility

    If I may … Please take the time to answer the following question for me.

    How many years of playing eligibility might you have left at the NCAA D1 level? [1, 2, 3, or 4]

    If the actual answer is 4 … then, that illustrates, in a nutshell, what I think of cap flexibility, i.e. it has absolutely ZERO Value until you actually USE it.

    ——————————————————–

    re: the improved depth from a deal with Portland in return for Bosh

    It would depend on what specific players were coming back to the Raptors and, as I said, I don’t think Pritchard is silly enough to give up on players like:

    Outlaw, Webster, Aldridge and Fernadez, each of whom I think is very good, in his own way.

    I will say this, however …

    If the Blazers would include all 4 of those specific players in the trade, and it’s doable financially [according to league rules], and a “non-protected Lottery” 1st Round Draft Pick was thrown in for good measure … then, I would make that deal in less than a heart-beat, if I was the Pres/GM of the Raptors. :-)

  12. Bball Says:

    Khandor, a couple of points:

    1. While the numbers you have pointed out re: Bosh’s performance at the centre position in this game analysis are interesting, I wonder whether they hold true in the last previous 2 games when Bargnani played very well.

    2. With respect to your statement:

    “IMO, if you took a poll of GM’s around the league today the vote would be 30-0, in favour of Chris Bosh … and, yet, some so-called Raptors fans would prefer to see the team trade Bosh and build around Bargnani.”

    No doubt, you are right when you say that all 30 GMs would take Bosh over Bargnani, since Bosh is currently the better player. But in the NBA with the salary cap rules, making a decision whether to keep a player or trade a player is always based on the player’s talent and value based on his contract. Most knowledgeable Raptors fans do not question Bosh’s talent but simply question whether the Raptors can be a significant contender in the Eastern Conference with Bosh making a maximum contract (approx. $20 Million per season) and taking up 25-30% of the team’s total payroll, especially if the team refuses to pay the luxury tax. This scenario is no different then what happenned when Kevin Garnett was in Minnesota.

    Given the financial constraints of the NBA salary cap and luxury tax levels, most knowledgeable fans wonder whether if the Raptors, with $20 Miillion to spend, would the team be better off with: (a) Bosh making a max contract (ie. $20 Million per season) leaving the team with little cap flexibility to sign other players; or (b) Trading Bosh and keeping Bargnani at a salary of say $10-11 Million on his next contract and the additional cap flexibility that would permit the team to sign/trade for other players with the additional $9-10 Million.

    Two questions for your consideration:

    1. Of the two alternatives outlined in (a) and (b) above, which do you think is better for the Raptors?

    2. Can the Raptors be a top end contender in the EC with Bosh earning a max contract if the Raptors do not go into the luxury tax?

  13. khandor Says:

    Bball,

    Welcome aboard! :-)

    re: the numbers for the previous 2 Raptors game

    Have a look at the blog entries on this site for those 2 games and then you tell me what those numbers mean to you. It’s right there in black & white.

    ——————————————————–

    re: a contender in the EC with a Mx Contract for CB4

    Are the Spurs a contender in the WC? Does TD have a Max Contract?

    If Bosh gets $21.0 M/yr, that leaves a huge chunk of $$$ left over for the remainder of the roster to be filled out … if it’s done properly.

    The MAIN problem isn’t in giving $21.0 M/yr to a 20/8-9 player like Chris Bosh it’s the WASTED $$$ which is currently going to players like:

    Jason Kapono, $5.8 M/yr
    Marcus Banks, $4.5 M/yr
    Jorge Garbajosa, ?.? M/yr
    Andrea Bargnan, $5.3 M/yr
    Shawm Marion, $17.0 M/yr, or Jermaine O’Neal, $21.0/yr.

    ——————————————————–

    re: Option a or b

    Although [b] is certainly workable … for a truly Top Notch GM in this league … [a] is the better option, by a country mile.

    * A team has a better opportunity to sign other high level players to begin with when it has a player like Bosh on its roster
    * Bargnani is not the type of player who draws other players towards him

    * Bosh is a far better Rebounder & Defender
    * Bargnani is below average in both of these areas

    * Bosh can score from the FT Line, from quick drives to the hoop, from the mid-range area, from the low-post, and in transition … when he’s healthy
    * Bargnani is a perimeter shooter, and can score once in a while on drives to the basket when he isn’t called for charging or traveling

    * Bosh gives his team more quickness and agility at the #5/C position
    * Bargnani is plenty quick for a 7-footer but he is still not as quick as Bosh

    [Overall, here's an ultra simple test for these two specific players.

    Can Bosh check Bargnani?
    Can Bargnani check Bosh?
    Which one checks the other 4 opponent players betters, from the Center position?
    Which one has an easier time scoring vs the majority of other Centers in the NBA today? e.g. players who are @ 6-11, 250]

    As long as the Raptors are run properly, from a basketball perspective … they can readily contend in the EC while giving a Max Contract to Bosh.

    Never mind the fact that an outfit like MLSE, with the finacial resources at its disposal, should never ever be afraid of exceeding the Luxury Tax.

  14. Marc Says:

    Bosh is not a centre, Bargnani is not a centre, O’Neal is not a centre. We need a real centre instead of 3 PFs. That was Colangelo’s mistake and I doubt he will make it again.

  15. khandor Says:

    Marc,

    Welcome aboard! :-)

    1. IMO, your definition of what constitues a Center is far too limited.

    There are many different ways to play the Center position effectively, and it would take far too long to list all the different men who have excelled at this specific position in this league with a unique combination of skills and abilities.

    IMO, all three of these players are examples of Centers in the history of this league.

    2. Bryan Colangelo has made a lot more than just 1 mistake, thus far. ;-)

  16. Marc Says:

    I agree that the positions are essentially meaningless. Magic Johnson played PG and C and kicked ass at both. It just depends on the player’s skills, and Bargnani, Bosh, and O’Neal all have PF-type skills. Like you said, the most important thing for a centre is to be a good help-defender, shot-blocker, and rebounder, and it helps a lot (see: Shaq, Howard) to be able to score in the post.

    O’Neal is a good help defender, a decent shot-blocker, and a passable rebounder, but he has little to no back-to-the-basket game.

    Bosh is an good help defender, an ok shot-blocker, and an ok rebounder, but once again has little to no back-to-the-basket game.

    Bargnani is a bad help defender, a medicore shot blocker, and a terrible rebounder (so far). And, again, he has no post-up game.

    All three of these guys (including Bosh) are missing essential elements of being a great Centre in the NBA. They are all great PFs, but do not have the proper skills to play centre effectively in this league. O’Neal was the closest thing we had to a proper centre but even he didn’t have the dominant inside offence you need. All three of them were starters and yet you could not start all three of them at the same time. Yeah, Colangelo has made other mistakes, but THAT was his biggest mistake, and essentially killed this season. We should have stuck with our dynamic and untraditional frontcourt and traded TJ to get a good slasher. Altho, who knew AP would regress so much?

  17. khandor Says:

    Marc,

    Please try and show me the “back-to-basket” scoring ability you see in THIS CENTER’S individual game.

    In the NBA …

    Chris Bosh is a Center.
    He is not a Power Forward.
    When he gets the chance to play Center, he is a High End player.

    What the Raptors should have done was trade down in the 2006 NBA Draft in order to select either Rudy Gay or Brandon Roy, who are both better basketball players than Andrea Bargnani … AND a good fit to go with Chris Bosh, as a Center.

    Choosing Bargnani with the No. 1 [overall] Draft Pick/2006 is THE KEY MISTAKE which Bryan Colangelo has made, thus far, and he’s been adjusting to it ever since … for the most part, in vain.

    He failed to see correctly what he had in J-Kidd back in Phoenix.
    He failed to see correctly what he had in S-Nash, the 1st time thru.
    He failed to see correctly what he had in J-Calderon, in ’05-06.
    He failed to see correctly what Gay & Roy presented in the ’06 Draft.
    He failed to see correctly what J-Kapono presented in the summer of ’07.
    He failed to see correctly what N-Jawai presented in the ’08 NBA Draft.
    He failed to see correctly what J-O’Neal presented this past summer.
    He failed to see correctly what R-Nesterovic presented this past summer.
    He failed to see correctly what J-Garbajosa presented this past summer.
    He failed to see correctly what C-Delfino presented this past summer.
    He failed to see correctly what H-Adams presented this past summer.
    He failed to see correctly what W-Solomon presented this past summer.
    He failed to see correctly what J-Moon presented this season.
    He failed to see correctly what S-Marion presented this season.

    Of course, he has also had successes along the way, just like seeing correctly what P-Mensah-Bonsu has presented this season.

    Hopefully, he doesn’t fail to see correctly again this summer, when it comes to:

    * Selecting in the 2009 Draft Lottery
    * Making personnel decisions re: Parker, Graham, Delfino & Marion
    * Assessing the relative abilities of Chris Bosh & Andrea Bargnani

    The future of the Raptors’ franchise depends on it.

  18. Marc Says:

    I said it “helps a lot” for a C to be able to score with their back to the basket, I didn’t say it was essential. What is essential, however, is rebounding, shot-blocking, and help defence, all of which Bill Russell had in spades. Chris Bosh is an all-star scorer, he is not an all-star defender.

    Drafting Bargnani may turn out to be brilliant, IF he continues to improve.

  19. khandor Says:

    Marc,

    We don’t share the same opinion of what the true “value” is for a perimeter shooting Big who is neither an above average Rebounder nor Team Defender.

    I would better characterize Chris Bosh, as an all-star player in the NBA who can score the ball AND provide first rate Team Defense AND Rebounding for his team, when he’s used as the Center.

    On the other hand, however … and in sharp contrast to the perception commonly [and mistakenly] held by others … Chris Bosh does not perform like an all-star player when he’s used at the Power Forward position for the Toronto Raptors.

  20. Marc Says:

    So you want Bosh to guard Shaq then? It’d be murder.

  21. khandor Says:

    Marc,

    Here’s a truism in life which is immutable:

    You cannot kill that which you cannot catch.

    Basketball is a game of relative quickness at the position played … and, if Chris Bosh is your Center and Shaquille O’Neal is the Opponent’s Center, then that’s an individual match-up which actually favours Bosh’s team.

    If Shaquille scores 50 pts on Bosh but Bosh’s team wins that game, that’s a result I would take every day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

    That’s part of what Mr. Russell did to Mr. Chamberlain, repeatedly.

    It’s a team game, based on individual match-ups and mismatches … with the ultimate Winner being the collection of 12 players on the squad that finishes with more points on the scoreboard than the other.

    Shaq is a Center in the NBA; and, so is Bosh.

    If all things are equal at the other 4 positions … and in terms of their back-ups, as well, and their coaching … Bosh’s team will beat Shaq’s team more than the other way around.

  22. Marc Says:

    I disagree wholeheartedly.

    Bosh might be able to score more points, but Shaq will rebound more, block more shots, change more shots, and is a much much much better passer out of the double team.

    Shaq (and his team) wins that one-on-one matchup four out of five times.

  23. khandor Says:

    Marc,

    You are free to disagree with me as much as you would like … but:

    i. The history of the NBA says that you are wrong; and,

    ii. Perhaps you didn’t really understand what I said in the first place, at least, based upon what you wrote in your comment above.

    I mentioned nothing about how many points Bosh would score, himself, or how many rebounds Shaq would get, or anything about Shaq’s individual number totals at all, in what I wrote before … except that the Diesel might go for 50 points vs Bosh, individually.

    What I said, however is that Bosh’s TEAM would win those games more often than not … as long as the other players on their respective teams are in fact relatively equal in ability, and their coaches as well, AND if Bosh gets to play the C-spot, exclusively.

    Basketball is a game of relative quickness at the position played and a team with a power-based Center like Shaq simply cannot stay with a team whose other players are just as good as their opponent’s #1, #2, #3 and #4, if their #5/C, in fact, has the skills and abilities of a player like Bosh as the center-piece for their team, in comparison.

  24. Marc Says:

    I understood what you meant.

    In that matchup both players have an advantage on the offensive end. My argument is that Shaq is a better rebounder, shot-blocker, defender, AND passer and that will give his team (all things being equal as you said) the advantage. I’m not talking about individual numbers, I’m talking about the effect that a particular individual will have on the entire team. Shaq’s team would win.

    That being said, at this point in their respective careers I would much rather have Bosh over O’Neal, but that is just not a favourable match-up for Bosh. They would not, and should not, play each other. They do and should play different positions.

  25. khandor Says:

    Marc,

    I really don’t think that you do actually understand what I mean … if you think that the “advantage” these two players each have at the offensive end is of equal value and importance to their respective teams.

    Let me give you two brief examples.

    #1. Bosh’s team, playing fast break basketball would in fact run Shaq’s team off the court … assuming that each of the other players on the floor are on an equal footing with their respective counterparts [and the coaches, too, for each team].

    Bosh’s team would score many more points in transition situations than Shaq’s team could possibly score against Bosh’s team … because Shaq wouldn’t be back there to stop Bosh’s team from scoring in transition in the first place, relative to the number of opportunities which Shaq’s team would have to score in transition against Bosh’s team in that same situation.

    Bosh’s individual quickness in transition, as a Center, in comparison with Shaq, is a major advantage for Bosh’s team that translates into a plethora of addition points for Bosh’s teammates.

    #2. Shaq’s match-up in the post offensively vs Bosh will, in and of itself, negate Shaq’s own passing ability … as long as Bosh’s coach chooses to not double-team Shaq in any way, plays Bosh behind Shaq and then allows Shaq to attack Bosh as much as he pleases, in an effort to score each and every point for his team.

    Q1. Will Shaq score a bunch of points, in total?
    A1. Yes, he will.

    Q2. Will Shaq’s team win that game, while running that mode of attack against Bosh’s team, exclusively?
    A2. No, they will not.

    Shaq’s 4 teammates would lose their rhythm, gradually become disenchanted and, whenever Shaq misses, eventually be run into the ground.

    Although it might be counter-intuitive to how certain others might think about the game of basketball … the fact is … this is how the game works when a Center like Mr. Russell plays against a Center like Mr. Chamberlain, or Mr. O’Neal, or Mr. Mikan, or Mr. Ming, etc., with all other factors being equal.

    Basketball is a game of quickness, relative to the position played.

    ———————————————–

    You are right about one thing.

    Shaq should never try to cover Chris Bosh. That is a mismatch which favours Bosh’s team.

    On the other hand, however, you are wrong, if you believe that Chris Bosh should not ever try to cover Shaquille O’Neal … because that too could in fact be advantegous for Bosh’s team, as well … depending on how his coach chooses to deploy the remainder of his personnel and whether or not Bosh’s 4 teammates are, in fact, as good as Shaq’s 4 teammates.

    When Chris Bosh plays his best basketball he, in fact, plays the exact same position as Shaquille O’Neal. He just plays it in a very different way than the Big Diesel.

  26. Marc Says:

    In this situation, my concern is that if Bosh has the advantage on the offensive end, the opposing coach can send a double team and since Bosh is not a good passer it will effectively neutralize him. When faced with a double team, Bosh does one of three things: Jumpshot (usually), drive and get fouled, or drive and turn the ball over. I have always said that if Bosh could become a 20/10/5 guy then the Raptors have a chance to be a great team.

    On the other end, you cannot throw a double team at Shaq because that will gaurentee an open jumpshot for someone else. As far as single coverage is concerned, Bosh will (as you state) get owned. It has been proven time and time again that Shaq can handle the double team, and Bosh can not.

    Chris Bosh is NOT Bill Russell. He may have similar skills on the offensive end but he is not a defensive stalwart like Russell was. AND, Bosh is not nearly as effective of a passer. To compare the two is blasphemy. I’ll eat my words when Bosh wins 11 championships.

    Bosh’s only hope is to make a move before the double team gets there. That is when he is at his most effective. However, this season at least, he has been hopelessly methodical in making that first move. This wouldn’t be a big problem if he was a better passer.

    In summation, all things being equal, Shaq’s team would win because he is a far better passer than Chris Bosh.

    Bosh can still learn, but he has to do it NOW.

  27. khandor Says:

    Marc,

    This an example of what I mean when I say that you just don’t get what I mean yet … including my comparison between Bosh and Mr. Russell.

    #1.

    Bosh does not have Red Auerbach as his coach.
    Bosh did not win his 2nd consecutive NCAA D1 championships and an Olympic Gold Medal and [I think] his 1st NBA Title in the SAME SEASON!
    Bosh is not going to win 11 NBA championships.
    Bosh is NOT the equivalent of The Great Bill Russell.

    What Chris Bosh is, however, is a player with Bill Russell-like qualities about his individual game and within his character as a human being.

    #2.

    Chris Bosh does not need to develop into a 20/10/5 player, in order to have his team succeed in a big way.

    What Chris Bosh NEEDS to do is … develop into a Center who puts up 10 points, 20 rebounds and 5 Assists per game for his team that has several other very good players on it at the #1, #2, #3 and #4 positions who can work well around Chris Bosh.

    To this point in his NBA career Bosh has had single games where he’s gotten 18 or 19 or possibly even 20 or more Rebounds in a game. These were solid performances where the Raptors played very well as a team. It’s when Chris Bosh focuses on REBOUNDING, TEAM DEFENSE and Shared Team Offense that he plays basketball, at the CENTER position, in a way which resembles a “poor man’s” Bill Russell, by dominating the glass, patroling the lane, and faciltating easy baskets for his higher scoring teammates.

    When Chris Bosh plays like that … he’s a dominant NBA player and his team wins more than its fair share of games … if in doubt please review the results for the 2006-2007 regular season.

    It’s when Chris Bosh doesn’t play like that … which beings with him being asked/made/allowed to play the #4/PF spot, instead of the Center position … that his team struggles mightily to win games in the NBA.

    The FACT IS that … Chris Bosh is NOT a PRIME-TIME Scorer in the NBA.

    What he is, however … is a potential 10/20/5 Center just waiting for the right coach to appear on the horizon, which is probably NEVER going to happen given the unfortunate state of the Raptors’ franchise.

  28. Raps Fan Says:

    it is VERY interesting to finally read your opinion of what bosh at center should be doing (you have always said it, but never explicitly spelt it out, guess we should have asked lol).

    i doubt in bosh’s ability to grab 20 rebounds, rodman/barkley (who were miles better rebounders then chris) never got closer then 17.5 or so, but 14-15 seems reasonable.

    it would also require a # 1 scorer, like a joe johson, and a coach who could talk chris into that role…ahhh…to dream….

  29. khandor Says:

    Raps Fan,

    Neither Rodman nor Barkley ever had the chance to play the #5/C spot for their respective teams … unlike Bill Russell and Bill Walton and Jack Sikma had a chance to do with the Celtics and the Trail Blazers and the Supersonics.

    Rodman and Barkley were both #4/PF’s. :-)

    ——————————————————————–

    re: the value of asking questions

    IMO, this is always a good idea … especially, when faced with something that is difficult to understand initially or something with which you might disagree at the outset. ;-)

    ——————————————————————–

    FWIW,

    It is never really that difficult for a “Top Notch” coach and/or GM to talk a “Top Notch” player into playing the game in a way which is better for his TEAM.

    Top Notch players relish working hard under the tutelage of a Top Notch coach and/or GM.

    Chris Bosh is a Top Notch player.

    What Chris Bosh needs, however, is a Top Notch coach and a Top Notch GM for whom he can go to work, each and every day of the week.

    If he doesn’t happen to find that … like so many countless players before him … his NBA career will not flourish as it could have if his personal life circumstances had only been different.

  30. Raps Fan Says:

    who do you think would be a good coach for the raptors, and specifically for bosh (both ideal situation, and a realistic option from the available pool)?

  31. Raps Fan Says:

    out of curiosity, how do you think rodman would have fared at center?

  32. khandor Says:

    Raps Fan,

    Although Dennis was a terrific Rebounder … as a Center, he would have left a lot to be desired … especially from an Emotional Stability standpoint ;-) and in terms of his actual shot-blocking skills.

    In his own unique way, the Worm was an absolutely fantastic #4/PF … but he was not a Center. :-)

    [i.e. Rodman could definitely "play" Center but this was not his BEST position on the court in the NBA Game.]

  33. khandor Says:

    Raps Fan,

    re: Top Notch coaches in today’s NBA game

    In my book, solid practicioners at work today would include, at least the following:

    Phil Jackson
    Gregg Popovich
    Jerry Sloan
    Doc Rivers
    Larry Brown
    Don Nelson
    Kevin McHale
    Nate McMillan
    Byron Scott
    Lawrence Frank
    Stan Van Gundy
    Rick Adelman
    Rick Carlisle

    IMO, Paul Silas and Jeff Van Gundy would both do a good job extracting the maximum capacity from Chris Bosh, as would all sorts of other individuals … some of whose names you might know already and others who you would have no idea about right now.

  34. Marc Says:

    I agree with Raps Fan. I highly doubt that Bosh will EVER get 20 rebounds a game, even with an elite cast surrounding him. While, obviously, it would make our team that much better to have a 10/20/5 guy, Chris Bosh is not that guy. He is a talented scorer and has an advantage over his man (yes, even if that man be a PF) on almost any given night. We currently ask too much of him scoring-wise, but he should still be able to give us 20 points a night.

    I still don’t see how you can compare Russell to Bosh. Russell was a dominant force on the defensive end and Bosh is not.

  35. FAQ Says:

    Bosh is gone from the Raptors. LeBron is gone from the Cavs.

    Both will end up on the Knicks to challenge the Celtics for Eastern supremacy.

    The Knicks have the resources to buy both players for max money.

    So please stop your deluding about Bosh staying in a Toronto hole.

    Bosh should be traded this summer for the best deal possible.

    Raptors need athletes, not one insignificant all-star, if they want to even compete in the future Eastern Conference .. with Celtic and Knick powerhouses.

  36. khandor Says:

    Marc,

    The fact is … until Bosh gets the chance to play Center, exclusively … we will never know for sure what he can actually “average” as a rebounder at THAT position, in this league.

    I have little doubt however that he CAN become a dominant player, in this regard, if he’s given the chance to do so by a coach who will use him in that way.

    Bosh is not a talented scorer and, in fact, loses much of his relative quickness advantage over his individual check when he has to play against other Power Forwards in the League, not just Kevin Garnett and Anderson Varejao.

    When a player like Bosh focuses his energies on scoring “20″ per game it becomes very difficult for him to also be a workhorse on the boards to the tune of 20 rebs. In all likelihood it will need to be one or the other.

    Bill Russell figured out the puzzle correctly years ago and showed the world which one is actually MORE important for a Center to perfect, on a championship calibre team.

    Tim Duncan has figured it out, as well … which is part of the reason he does not put up more gaudy scoring numbers than he does on a regular basis.

    Watch Duncan attentively when he plays. If his highly skilled teammates are healthy and scoring the ball Tim will focus his energy almost exclusively on Rebounding & Defense … and the Spurs will usually win comfortably.

    It is when his higher scoring teammates are out of the line-up that Tim then switches into more of a scoring mode in order to relieve that burden from other teammates who are less talented than he is in this area of the game. It’s a treat to watch Tim play the game in this way.

    —————————–

    If you cannot see how Chris Bosh is similar to a “poor man’s” Bill Russell there is nothing a can do about that.

  37. khandor Says:

    FAQ,

    Welcome aboard! :-)

    The FACT is … Chris Bosh is not gone from Toronto.
    He’s lining up for the Raptors tomorrow nigh vs Charlotte.
    Whether he’s a Raptor long term is still to be determined by Bryan Colangelo and Chris Bosh.

    The FACT is … Lebron James is not gone from Cleveland.
    He lined up this evening for the Cavs vs the Portland.
    Whether he’s a Cavalier long term is still to be determined by Danny Ferry and Lebron James.

    The FACT is … what’s truly delusional is any categorical proclamation that says,

    “Chris Bosh and Lebron James are both gone from their current teams and will be signed by the New York Knicks … 16 months from now.”

    If someone wants to say that … that’s certainly their perogative. Time will prove if they are actually Right or Wrong.

    ——————————————————–

    Whether Bosh is signed to a Max Contract, or not … there is nothing to stop the Raptors from adding young, athletic players to their current roster … other than the decision-making abilities of their basketball brain-trust.

    Chris Bosh is not the main source of the problem[s] with the Raptors, despite what individuals like you might think. ;-)

  38. Marc Says:

    Calling anyone a “poor man’s” anything is demeaning to both parties involved. Bosh and Russell should both be offended.

    And now you are comparing Chris Bosh to Tim Duncan?

    Bosh is far more gifted as an offensive player than as a defensive player. It’s a fact. Look it up.

    Tim Duncan is much more like Bill Russell.

  39. khandor Says:

    Marc,

    Refering to someone as a “poor man’s” version of the Great Basketball Player of All-Time is anything but “demeaning to both parties involved.

    When someone makes a statement like THAT … i.e. which says that it’s an insult, in their mind … it reveals a lot about the way THEY think about the world, in general.

    Yes, indeed … Mr. Duncan and Mr. Bosh are readily comparable, in the mind of someone who truly understands the game of basketball.

    I do not expect you or certain others to be able to see exactly what it is that I see in specific players because if you had that rare ability already you would not be doing what it is that you’re doing right now nor saying the things you’re saying about these individuals’ skill sets and their character.

    Instead of doing what you’re doing right now you’d be doing what I do, which I’m confident that you don’t do, IN FACT, at all.

    ———————————————–

    Chris Bosh may well have demonstrated more of the offensive skills he has right now to someone who thinks about the game in the way that you do. That much is a given.

    This is not to say, however, that to someone who sees the game like I do [or, for example, Mike Krzyzewski, or Mike D'Antoni, or Nate McMillan, etc.], that is an accurate assessment of who Chris Bosh is, as a top flight basketball player.

    When Chris Bosh plays the game at his highest level of performance … THE FACT IS … he does so at the Center position.

    Whether individuals who think about the game like you do are able to see THAT for themselves [or not] is quite irrelevant.

    * Chris Bosh’s best performances to-date have come when he’s been playing Center.
    * The Raptors’ best performances to-date WITH Chris Bosh have come when he’s been playing CENTER.
    * The Redeem Team won the Gold Medal in the 2008 Olympic Games with Chris Bosh playing Center.

    It’s a shame that certain others do not have the ability to see Chris Bosh’s worth, as a Center, with their own eyes.

  40. Marc Says:

    If it’s such an obvious and brilliant move to put Bosh at C, why don’t the Raptors do it all the time?

    I didn’t realize you were a better coach than Jay Triano.

  41. khandor Says:

    Marc,

    ——————————————————-
    If it’s such an obvious and brilliant move to put Bosh at C, why don’t the Raptors do it all the time? – by Marc
    ——————————————————-

    * For the same reasons it took the Raptors sooo looong to realize that using Anthony Parker as the Back-up PG for this year’s team was actually the proper solution to their problem they had at that specific position …

    * And the same reasons they never did realize just how good and effective the 5-Man Unit consisting of:

    Calderon + Moon + Graham + Humpries + Bosh

    would have been for the team that broke training camp together

    * And the same reasons they still keep trotting Jason Kapono out on the floor beside Jose Calderon, despite the fact that that duo is a terrible combination for the Raptors’ back-court …

    * And the same reasons they mistakenly thought that adding a player like Jermaine O’Neal this summer … in exchange for TJ Ford, Rasho Nesterovic, Maceo Baston and the 2008 No. 17 [overall] Draft Pick … would SOMEHOW solve their Rebounding Differential problem …

    etc., etc., etc.

    Just because someone holds a specific position in the NBA does not mean that s/he sees the game of basketball in a way which is superior to any number of other equally [or more] knowledge and qualified people in this world … or, that the decisions which they make as a result of that knowledge are necessarily the correct ones.

    ——————————————————–
    I didn’t realize you were a better coach than Jay Triano. – by Marc
    ——————————————————–

    There’s A LOT you may not have realized … just yet. :-)

    ROTFLOLKAS

  42. Marc Says:

    I just don’t buy it. Bosh, in my mind, is, has been, and will always be a PF.

  43. khandor Says:

    Marc,

    No problem. You’re entitled to hold that opinion.

    All I would suggest to you is this:

    * Use a Substitution Chart, like the one I’ve created for this blog to keep track of and compare the actual production levels of the Raptors:

    I. When Bosh is on the floor as their Center without Bargnani;

    II. When Bosh is on the floor as their Power Forward, beside Bargnani [C];

    and,

    III. When Bosh is on the bench.

    Best wishes to you, Sir, and …

    Keep on Truck’n :-)

    PS. Life’s too short to sweat the small stuff.

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